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Modern WI: Second Polish Republic Gets their Naval Wish list?

Could Poland into stronk navy?

  • ABSOLUTELY!

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  • NOT A CHANCE!

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  • Total voters
    1

Mark Poe

The majestic cock
Writing Champ
Probably very close to ASB (as the folks of a certain other site would say), but this is rooted in some actual historical facts...

Conway's All The World's Fighting Ships 1906-1921 said:
... In December 1919 only six ex-German torpedo-boats were allocated to Poland, though strong protests were issued by the Polish delegation to Versailles. The delegation demanded 2 light cruiser, 2 destroyers, and a number of submarine chasers, motor boats and auxiliary ship. These Claims were based on the economic potential of inland Polish industrial districts, which until 1918 had been under German and Austrian administration for more than a century: the protests were not approved

... Poland also claimed her share from the Russian Navy during the Polish-Soviet peace talks in Riga in 1921. At these negotiations 2 Gangut class battleships, 10 large destroyers, 5 submarines, 10 minesweepers, 21 auxiliaries and transports, 2 uncompleted Svetlana class cruisers and other equipment (guns, mines, etc) were demanded...

So what if by a miracle of diplomacy the Poles actually receive all those ships? (Perhaps the Western democrices in this timeline wanted a strong Poland to check potential German & Russian ambitions in the Baltic? And maybe a far worse Russian Civil War meaning a weaker USSR at the negotiation table)

Edit: additional useful info on the interwar period Poles:
Conway's all the World's Fighting Ships 1922-1946 said:
The considerable investments made by the Polish Government in Gdynia and the gradual stabilisation of Poland's economy brought about the possibility of additional military expenditure, and in 1924...

... A naval base would be built at Gdynia to house and supply the Polish ships as well as those of the French Navy which, according to the 1921 alliance, could be expected in case of war with Russia. ...

... but by mid-1925 the Polish currency was in serious trouble and all but the minelaying submarines fell victim to budget cuts.
Conway's all the World's Fighting Ships 1922-1946 said:
By the end of the 1920s the Polish community had become widely interested in maritime affairs, thanks to the development of Gdynia: spontaneous local action had produced funds for the expansion of the Navy. In 1930 the Reichminister Treviranus questioned the legality of the Polish possession of Pomerania, and thereupon the Polish public organisations arranged a nationwide subscription for the building of a submarine. By the middle of 1935 the equivalent of £200,000 had been raised from voluntary contributions, ...

... It was also planned to build 17 MTBs from public subscription - one from each of the Polish provinces.
Conway's all the World's Fighting Ships 1922-1946 said:
The introduction of national service in Germany in 1935 and the militarisation of the Rhineland posed problems for the defense of Poland. Steady economic growth and political changes had made Polish military planning receptive to new ideas. The six-year re-armament programme authorised in 1936 promised a through modernisation of the Polish armed forces, based mainly on the country's own industrial capability. A large industrial complex, located between the Vistula and San trivers (far from both the German and Russian borders) had been planned in the late 1930s, but unfortunately little had been completed before the outbreak of war.

Conway's all the World's Fighting Ships 1906-1921 said:
Meanwhile, the fleet expansion programmees were drawn up. The 1920 programme called for a fantastic 2 battleships, 6 cruisers, 28 destroyers, 45 submarines, 28 minesweepers and auxiliaries. Four large and twenty small monitors had to be built on Poland's rivers together with 49 motor boats. This programme had to be completed by 1929. This date was totally unrealistic, due to Poland's economic situation, ...

... though talks were underway with the British Admiralty for transferring 1 cruiser, 4 destroyers, 2 floating workshops and some CMBs to Poland.
 
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During the interwar period? The early part when the Wiemar republic's military (all branches) was heavily limited by the treaty of Versailles, or the late interwar period, when even with rearmament going at breakneck pace Nazi Germany still have to decide which branch to take priority (the knock on effects of that could be rather far reaching, especially if aircraft or armor development were cut in favor of additional naval rearmament).

A stronger polish navy could have a lot of far reaching geo-political effects even before 1939.
 
During the interwar period? The early part when the Wiemar republic's military (all branches) was heavily limited by the treaty of Versailles, or the late interwar period, when even with rearmament going at breakneck pace Nazi Germany still have to decide which branch to take priority (the knock on effects of that could be rather far reaching, especially if aircraft or armor development were cut in favor of additional naval rearmament).
A stronger Polish Navy i would area would effect the Polish Army and Air force and their move to get stronger.
 
Yes, overall there'll be a lot of effects to Poland and her neighbors, and depending on what moves Germany make will also affect treaties like the 1935 Anglo-German naval agreement (Germany would demand a better ratio to handle both the French and Polish navies, while the UK would balk at that), London Naval conference (should limits on individual cruiser sizes be increased in light of developments in Germany in response to the polish battleships), etc.

In other words it's not necessarily a clear cut cause and effect scenario.
 
Yes, overall there'll be a lot of effects to Poland and her neighbors, and depending on what moves Germany make will also affect treaties like the 1935 Anglo-German naval agreement (Germany would demand a better ratio to handle both the French and Polish navies, while the UK would balk at that), London Naval conference (should limits on individual cruiser sizes be increased in light of developments in Germany in response to the polish battleships), etc.

In other words it's not necessarily a clear cut cause and effect scenario.
I remember a nice ship ([http://www.combinedfleet.com/furashita/solida_f.htm]) the Polish Navy could use if they wanted to build a fleet that could rule the Baltic Sea.
 
Had to some digging @Mark Poe but found this.


Polish Ships in service in 1936

1 D`Entrecasteaux-class Light Cruiser (renamed the Baltyk, this ship was built in 1899 in France and sold to Poland as a hulk in 1927; it had little to no combat value)
2 Wicher-class Destroyers (French-built destroyers)
3 Wilk-class Submarines (French-built subs)

Additional ships commissioned by 1939

2 Grom-class Destroyers (UK-built destroyers)
2 Orzel-class Submarines (Dutch-built subs, the Orzel had a very interesting career)

Ships launched in 1939

2 Huragan-class Destroyers (construction started in July '37, scrapped by Germany; these were built in Gdynia by Poland itself)
2 unknown-class Submarines (laid down in France, never named, scrapped by Germany)

Poland also had many naval expansion plans, none of which were feasible due to economic reasons (notice the differences between the two 1920 build plans :)). The lists below are for the total fleet size. At the time the 1936 plan was made, Poland's navy consisted of only 2 destroyers and 3 submarines plus smaller vessels from the 1924 Plan, and only 2 additional destroyers and 2 additional submarines were delivered by the time the war started. The 1936 build plan was to be completed by 1942, with the bulk of the ships being built in Poland itself starting in 1940. The following are official expansion plans that were approved by Poland's government.

Russian Empire ships claimed by Poland*

2 Gangut-class Battleships
2 Svetlana-class cruisers (both unfinished)
10 destroyers
5 submarines

1st 1920 Plan
2 Battleships (these are NOT the Ganguts from above)
6 Light Cruisers
28 Destroyers
45 Submarines

2nd 1920 Plan (revision of the 1st 1920 Plan)
1 Light Cruiser
4 Destroyers
2 Submarines

1924 Plan (revision of the 2nd 1920 Plan)
2 Light Cruisers
6 Destroyers (2 delivered)
12 Submarines (3 delivered)

1936 expansion plan (revision of the 1924 Plan)
8 Destroyers (2 delivered, 2 already existing from '24 plan, 2 under construction when the war started)
12 Submarines (2 delivered, 3 already from '24 plan, 2 under construction in France when war started)

* Due to the chaos of the disintegration of the Russian Empire and the Russian Civil War, not all post-Russian states were given "their share" of the Russian navy. During the 1921 Riga peace talks, Poland demanded its share of the Russian navy, but dropped the claims for territorial gains instead to end the Polish-Soviet War.
 
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