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Venezuela

Gumbikhan

Well-known member
We didn't really lead Libya... It was mostly Europe telling us that all the stuff they yelled at us about the middle east needed to be done in Libya and getting mad when we didn't even really feel like it.

Either way....

You're all way too hung up on the US part of this story. Venezuala has been an utter shitshow for years, people are fucking starving and fleeing the country. Most of South America already turned against Maduro. Mexico, Cuba, and Bolivia are the only current supporters of the current regime.

The country is already breaking down on its own. Inflation was 80,000% percent in 2018. What you want the US to do, give Maduro hundreds of millions of dollars in equipment to keep him in power in the face of obvious discontent?
The thing is, we go in it will almost certainly prove enough of a distraction that Trump will face far less criticism because we’re helping the poor under privileged people in Venezuela or securing our borders. It will be a distraction he wants. Possibly even something to bring further unity backing him.

Now, if we actually go into help there’s no right way of doing it. We support him, we support a tyrant. We’re giving power to a guy who has seems corrupt and helping to prop him up. Which may not be all bad. Some stability is better than nothing.

We go in with force and we’re going to kill thousands or tens of thousands at best who resist or just get in the way, accidents not counting the humanitarian clusterfuck it will be. We haven’t properly built up our past two ventures or Haiti even. I’m not sure how old you are but I remember all the dead kids and families playing on the road to Baghdad. Roads filled with wrecked burned out cars.

So we bring him down. Then what? Some portion of that country will resent us interfering and make it difficult. Another will seek to exploit us. Others will try to do the right thing but that’s difficult because it means they’ll have to agree on something. Remember WW2? Nazis and Axis allies murdering people and partisan groups fought one another because they didn’t like each. Afghanistan, Iraq. Same thing. Without that force, that national being holding people in check they seem to fall apart under such turmoil. Sure Americans can fill that gap for a time but losses will mount, expenses will rise, resentment will most likely continue and prosper.

This isn’t even taking into account the greater political environment of Russia being salty as fuck and possibly China as well or the neighborhood who may want their people involved. I well imagine other South American nations would be thrilled at America busting open a sewage line that spills over into their yards in great spurts at that point.

Better to go hands off for now. America is damned if we do and damned if we don’t but not rushing in will save us the expenditure of resources, time, lives for now.
 

Wakko

Well-known member
The thing is, we go in it will almost certainly prove enough of a distraction that Trump will face far less criticism because we’re helping the poor under privileged people in Venezuela or securing our borders. It will be a distraction he wants. Possibly even something to bring further unity backing him.
I'm 70% convinced that this is the reason (or the major reason) why Trump's doing it now. You have to remember that the current escalation started with Guaido proclaiming himself president after a call from Pence. Trump is in deep trouble with Dems controlling the House, he has been humiliated by Pelosi, and he needs something to prop him up. Could the guy be a bigger fucking psychopath?

This isn’t even taking into account the greater political environment of Russia being salty as fuck and possibly China as well
There's a potential major geopolitical setback for the US hidden in this. Imagine that the situation escalates and it becomes likely that there will be a civil war and that the US will do what it does best - starts bombing Maduro's forces. Maduro is still the legitimate representative of Venezuela as far as international law is concerned, and he may decide to use the Assad trick - invite a foreign power to help him defend himself. Right now it won't happen because it would be a major escalation, but if somebody else does the escalating, Maduro may come to the conclusion that he has nothing to lose if he pisses the US even more - they can kill him only once. What will happen is suddently a couple of battalions of Russian or Chinese A2/AD + some 20-40 fighters appear in Venezuela?
Now, this presumes that Russia or China were willing to do this, which I don't believe. But the chance that it will happen is greater than zero, and somebody in Washington needs to do a basic risk analysis and determine whether getting rid of Maduro is worth risking another humiliation much worse than Syria (because it's a lot closer to the US and it will be of Trump's doing) - a personal humiliation of Trump and Bolton which can easily drag out all the way into the 2020 election campaign.
 

Gumbikhan

Well-known member
I'm 70% convinced that this is the reason (or the major reason) why Trump's doing it now. You have to remember that the current escalation started with Guaido proclaiming himself president after a call from Pence. Trump is in deep trouble with Dems controlling the House, he has been humiliated by Pelosi, and he needs something to prop him up. Could the guy be a bigger fucking psychopath?
Agreed. I have little doubt this is the whole point. Look at this hand I'm holding in front of you while the other one pushes papers into the trash can.

There's a potential major geopolitical setback for the US hidden in this. Imagine that the situation escalates and it becomes likely that there will be a civil war and that the US will do what it does best - starts bombing Maduro's forces. Maduro is still the legitimate representative of Venezuela as far as international law is concerned, and he may decide to use the Assad trick - invite a foreign power to help him defend himself. Right now it won't happen because it would be a major escalation, but if somebody else does the escalating, Maduro may come to the conclusion that he has nothing to lose if he pisses the US even more - they can kill him only once. What will happen is suddently a couple of battalions of Russian or Chinese A2/AD + some 20-40 fighters appear in Venezuela?
Now, this presumes that Russia or China were willing to do this, which I don't believe. But the chance that it will happen is greater than zero, and somebody in Washington needs to do a basic risk analysis and determine whether getting rid of Maduro is worth risking another humiliation much worse than Syria (because it's a lot closer to the US and it will be of Trump's doing) - a personal humiliation of Trump and Bolton which can easily drag out all the way into the 2020 election campaign.
This raises other questions. I could see us going into Venezuela with a certain Russian or Chinese acceptance but they'd have to receive something in return or the US has to be in a stronger bargaining position. Which, we aren't, we're disunited currently, seemingly pushing allies away which means to me we'll have to give these other two something in return. What will that be? Less sanctions on one of their allies or themselves, free reign in a region or another nation. We get Venezuela but leave the Norks alone for China for example.

I firmly don't believe going in as of right now is worth it. A sewage system that works part of the time is better than one that doesn't work for twenty years without a trillion dollars worth of expenses.
 

AbsoluteEpic

Well-known member
I think I wrote it pretty clearly. Hands off Venezuela, let them solve their problems on their own. That way if there will be civil war, at least it won't be on you for once.
People will always blame us. We're the premier superpower everything that happens inevitably is linked back to us no matter no inane. I'm not really sure why the hell we should take the opinions of the Russians and Chinese into account when they obviously think of us no better whether we do or not. Maduro owes them billions of dollars, everything else is just for show and you damn well know it is. Why should the US tip toe around situation that is going to blow up one way or another?

What pisses me off is the idea who need to be beholden to Russia or China's opinion on whether or not the Maduro regime needs to go. I don't even want an armed intervention. I just don't see the need to be supporting Maduro, his own Latin neighbors don't so why should we when they've been a clear thorn in our side for decades? Why should we act nice to this fucking tinpot for the sake of people who could give less of a fuck about what is moral in and right and only seek to take whatever is in their power to do so like Russia and China? I could understand it if it was for our allies, but almost all of Latin America except Cuba, Mexico, and Bolivia want him gone, and most of the EU has taken the side of his opposition.

So why should we be reserved about intervening? China and Russia have already sent mercenaries, already given Maduro millions of dollars in equipment to suppress protest, and are already openly backing him despite overwhelming dissent among the Venezuelans against Maduro. Again.... Inflation is 80,000%, people are starving, and it's turning into a refugee crisis. The country is already falling apart, what is the ethical hang up over intervening at least to some capacity when not only has Russia and China already done that, but who's own position on those matters are utterly ass backwards and aren't worth the paper it is printed on?
 

Heresy

Well-known member
People will always blame us. We're the premier superpower everything that happens inevitably is linked back to us no matter no inane. I'm not really sure why the hell we should take the opinions of the Russians and Chinese into account when they obviously think of us no better whether we do or not. Maduro owes them billions of dollars, everything else is just for show and you damn well know it is. Why should the US tip toe around situation that is going to blow up one way or another?

What pisses me off is the idea who need to be beholden to Russia or China's opinion on whether or not the Maduro regime needs to go. I don't even want an armed intervention. I just don't see the need to be supporting Maduro, his own Latin neighbors don't so why should we when they've been a clear thorn in our side for decades? Why should we act nice to this fucking tinpot for the sake of people who could give less of a fuck about what is moral in and right and only seek to take whatever is in their power to do so like Russia and China? I could understand it if it was for our allies, but almost all of Latin America except Cuba, Mexico, and Bolivia want him gone, and most of the EU has taken the side of his opposition.

So why should we be reserved about intervening? China and Russia have already sent mercenaries, already given Maduro millions of dollars in equipment to suppress protest, and are already openly backing him despite overwhelming dissent among the Venezuelans against Maduro. Again.... Inflation is 80,000%, people are starving, and it's turning into a refugee crisis. The country is already falling apart, what is the ethical hang up over intervening at least to some capacity when not only has Russia and China already done that, but who's own position on those matters are utterly ass backwards and aren't worth the paper it is printed on?
I don’t think they’re saying that you should care about China and Russia’s opinion on a moral basis but because they have both the material means and reasons to support maduro and any anti-US partisan groups that may arise and make the whole affair as bloody and messy as possible.

I personally don’t support intervention for the same reasons they stated but with an emphasis that I expect the US to do as it usually does and massively fuck things up, step on the few good things left and then leave once they destroy everything doing absolutely nothing to help.

Better to just support the opposition with money and other forms of support and let them handle it.
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
I don’t think they’re saying that you should care about China and Russia’s opinion on a moral basis but because they have both the material means and reasons to support maduro and any anti-US partisan groups that may arise and make the whole affair as bloody and messy as possible.

I personally don’t support intervention for the same reasons they stated but with an emphasis that I expect the US to do as it usually does and massively fuck things up, step on the few good things left and then leave once they destroy everything doing absolutely nothing to help.

Better to just support the opposition with money and other forms of support and let them handle it.
As a reminder, I'll simply ask how well it went when the West supported the opposition to Assad (who is himself a murderous asshole, but that's kinda beyond the point) when Russia wanted him to stay. The US isn't nearly as powerful as it'd need to be to ignore Russia's and China's opinion.
 

AbsoluteEpic

Well-known member
Wait, what? The EU recommends new elections, it hasn't supported the opposition itself.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-eu-idUSKCN1PK0I3
The very fact that the EU called for new election calling the legitimacy of Maduro's election into question is a direct question of authority and agreeing with the opposition in their questioning of whether the election accurately portrayed the will of the people. AKA how a election works, that's calling Maduro in his current position without a "legitimate" election as illegitimate.

Here is a new article from 18 hours ago instead of a week:
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-venezuela-politics-eu/eu-parliament-recognizes-guaido-as-venezuelan-interim-president-idUSKCN1PP1HQ
EU governments, divided over whether to recognize Guaido, also agreed to lead an international crisis group with South American nations to seek new elections, setting a 90-day time limit, and threatening further economic sanctions.

EU lawmakers voted 439 in favor to 104 against, with 88 abstentions, at a special session in Brussels to recognize Venezuelan congress head Guaido as interim leader.
That hardly seems like a neutral position.
Britain, France, Germany and Spain said on Saturday, however, that they would recognize Guaido unless Maduro called elections within eight days. But the EU as a whole has not set a time limit in its call for a new presidential vote and in its Bucharest meeting did not take a clear position.
Given everyone and their mother knows Maduro lost that election; the EU demand is tantamount to demanding Maduro step down from power.

As a reminder, I'll simply ask how well it went when the West supported the opposition to Assad (who is himself a murderous asshole, but that's kinda beyond the point) when Russia wanted him to stay. The US isn't nearly as powerful as it'd need to be to ignore Russia's and China's opinion.
Syria is smack dab in the middle East not far from Russia and bordering a regional power like Iran at the border able to funnel resources into the country. Venezuela has not a single nation on it's border friendly to Maduro.
 

Gumbikhan

Well-known member
People will always blame us. We're the premier superpower everything that happens inevitably is linked back to us no matter no inane. I'm not really sure why the hell we should take the opinions of the Russians and Chinese into account when they obviously think of us no better whether we do or not. Maduro owes them billions of dollars, everything else is just for show and you damn well know it is. Why should the US tip toe around situation that is going to blow up one way or another?

What pisses me off is the idea who need to be beholden to Russia or China's opinion on whether or not the Maduro regime needs to go. I don't even want an armed intervention. I just don't see the need to be supporting Maduro, his own Latin neighbors don't so why should we when they've been a clear thorn in our side for decades? Why should we act nice to this fucking tinpot for the sake of people who could give less of a fuck about what is moral in and right and only seek to take whatever is in their power to do so like Russia and China? I could understand it if it was for our allies, but almost all of Latin America except Cuba, Mexico, and Bolivia want him gone, and most of the EU has taken the side of his opposition.

So why should we be reserved about intervening? China and Russia have already sent mercenaries, already given Maduro millions of dollars in equipment to suppress protest, and are already openly backing him despite overwhelming dissent among the Venezuelans against Maduro. Again.... Inflation is 80,000%, people are starving, and it's turning into a refugee crisis. The country is already falling apart, what is the ethical hang up over intervening at least to some capacity when not only has Russia and China already done that, but who's own position on those matters are utterly ass backwards and aren't worth the paper it is printed on?
Alright, sure. We get rid of the guy then what? Really? Civil War? Anarchy? A replacement? America forcing the guy out of office and his cronies will leave a power vacuum and without some kind of force filling that vacuum shit is going to get nastier before it gets better. The Venezuelan neighborhood may want him gone but they sure don't want Somolia or Iraq 2.0, drug cartels or such moving in and filling that vacuum either. Then who is the region going to blame for that? The US of course who forced the asshat out of office without filling the position.

Let alone if Russia or China keep funding him, or seeing what we're doing in the region decided to stir the pot in other areas across the globe just to irk us for what we're doing. The situation does not exist in a vacuum and the last two decades show what happens when we build nations in regions that are not friendly or are not fully supportive of the plan of operation.

That is of course if there will be an actual plan of operation implemented instead of throwing darts at a wall and hoping for a bull's eye.
 

AbsoluteEpic

Well-known member
Alright, sure. We get rid of the guy then what? Really? Civil War? Anarchy? A replacement? America forcing the guy out of office and his cronies will leave a power vacuum and without some kind of force filling that vacuum shit is going to get nastier before it gets better. The Venezuelan neighborhood may want him gone but they sure don't want Somolia or Iraq 2.0, drug cartels or such moving in and filling that vacuum either. Then who is the region going to blame for that? The US of course who forced the asshat out of office without filling the position.

Let alone if Russia or China keep funding him, or seeing what we're doing in the region decided to stir the pot in other areas across the globe just to irk us for what we're doing. The situation does not exist in a vacuum and the last two decades show what happens when we build nations in regions that are not friendly or are not fully supportive of the plan of operation.

That is of course if there will be an actual plan of operation implemented instead of throwing darts at a wall and hoping for a bull's eye.
Why is this an if or? It's going to happen either way, the Russians and Chinese already plan on backing Maduro and have been supplying him with weapons and financial aid. Russia and China already plan to turn the region into a mess and to irk the US in other parts of the world. The world is not a vacuum and rain does not stop falling from the sky just cause you don't dance for a day. Literally nothing you've said is a consequence but what is going to happen already.

We'll be blamed for it regardless, people bringing up incidents decades ago, geopolitics in other areas of the world, holding us to standards that they don't absolutely don't hold and will bend to their convenience. Nothing changes by us not intervening. Every negative outcome you predict is going to happen anyway, why humble ourselves?
 

Gumbikhan

Well-known member
Why is this an if or? It's going to happen either way, the Russians and Chinese already plan on backing Maduro and have been supplying him with weapons and financial aid. Russia and China already plan to turn the region into a mess and to irk the US in other parts of the world. The world is not a vacuum and rain does not stop falling from the sky just cause you don't dance for a day. Literally nothing you've said is a consequence but what is going to happen already.

We'll be blamed for it regardless, people bringing up incidents decades ago, geopolitics in other areas of the world, holding us to standards that they don't absolutely don't hold and will bend to their convenience. Nothing changes by us not intervening. Every negative outcome you predict is going to happen anyway, why humble ourselves?
Because if you're not humble than you're arrogant and you've lost all support already because you're so blinded that you believe only you are right while ignoring every other viewpoint. Murrica.

However, America can be better than that. We can go in. But why go in now when it's clearly a distraction serving no purpose for American interests except to distract everyone from Trump's actual failings. I approve of America being the World Police and a force of stability by being the guy with the biggest stick. Because conflict between multiple powers is great for innovation but also for wide spread death and dick waving. However, America cannot be a force for stability and good if we're arrogant pricks about, certain we're going to leave everything better. Then what are we? The French, that's what! :whistle:

But an arrogant America as the World Police and a force of stability is not a thing. Then we're little more than bullies. Better to be humble about it and take the region, neighbors, allies and other assholes into consideration to acknowledge their agendas, wishes, and helping hand. But, just because we listen to them doesn't mean we do what each want but work to a better solution or have allies offer a helping hand as well.
 

AbsoluteEpic

Well-known member
Because if you're not humble than you're arrogant and you've lost all support already because you're so blinded that you believe only you are right while ignoring every other viewpoint. Murrica.

However, America can be better than that. We can go in. But why go in now when it's clearly a distraction serving no purpose for American interests except to distract everyone from Trump's actual failings. I approve of America being the World Police and a force of stability by being the guy with the biggest stick. Because conflict between multiple powers is great for innovation but also for wide spread death and dick waving. However, America cannot be a force for stability and good if we're arrogant pricks about, certain we're going to leave everything better. Then what are we? The French, that's what! :whistle:

But an arrogant America as the World Police and a force of stability is not a thing. Then we're little more than bullies. Better to be humble about it and take the region, neighbors, allies and other assholes into consideration to acknowledge their agendas, wishes, and helping hand. But, just because we listen to them doesn't mean we do what each want but work to a better solution or have allies offer a helping hand as well.
What viewpoints? Russia and China want the billions of dollars they gave Maduro, or want assets in the form of cutting pieces of the country for their own interests. The place has been their way of influencing Latin America. There is no right or wrong, that is a fact. And one they're going to watch an entire country collapse to achieve.

What is there to discuss?
 

Lerticus

Senile Old Coot
Yes, 'Murica and company are only concerned with free elections. This is why they supported the coup in Ukraine and have been propping them up despite widespread corruption and every indication that the upcoming elections will be rigged (if they aren't preempted by another minor matter triggering martial law).
 

Wakko

Well-known member
People will always blame us. We're the premier superpower everything that happens inevitably is linked back to us no matter no inane. I'm not really sure why the hell we should take the opinions of the Russians and Chinese into account when they obviously think of us no better whether we do or not. Maduro owes them billions of dollars, everything else is just for show and you damn well know it is. Why should the US tip toe around situation that is going to blow up one way or another?

What pisses me off is the idea who need to be beholden to Russia or China's opinion on whether or not the Maduro regime needs to go. I don't even want an armed intervention. I just don't see the need to be supporting Maduro, his own Latin neighbors don't so why should we when they've been a clear thorn in our side for decades? Why should we act nice to this fucking tinpot for the sake of people who could give less of a fuck about what is moral in and right and only seek to take whatever is in their power to do so like Russia and China? I could understand it if it was for our allies, but almost all of Latin America except Cuba, Mexico, and Bolivia want him gone, and most of the EU has taken the side of his opposition.

So why should we be reserved about intervening? China and Russia have already sent mercenaries, already given Maduro millions of dollars in equipment to suppress protest, and are already openly backing him despite overwhelming dissent among the Venezuelans against Maduro. Again.... Inflation is 80,000%, people are starving, and it's turning into a refugee crisis. The country is already falling apart, what is the ethical hang up over intervening at least to some capacity when not only has Russia and China already done that, but who's own position on those matters are utterly ass backwards and aren't worth the paper it is printed on?
I really don't get how you got from my "stop organizing civil war in Venezuela" to this. As I read it you're basically arguing using Venezuelan opposition as cannon fodder in a geopolitical fight against Russia and China. You don't seem to make a difference between poverty and actual civil war. And your argument "let's be bad, they will hate us anyway"... wow.
I loved America until you murdered millions in the ME/NA. Even when you bombed Serbia I didn't like it but it wasn't a total dealbreaker for me. Now you're on your way to provide weapons or even air support to a faction in Venezuela so that they can go to war. Will I blame you? You bet I will. If you want to help the people, there are peaceful ways to force Maduro to change his policies. He'd be willing to do a lot to get from under sanctions. He won't be willing to give up power, but that is not necessary to help people live better and maybe force him to hold free elections when his term is up. Then, for once, you would be the good guys.
 

Alias

Moderator
Moderator
Author
I really don't get how you got from my "stop organizing civil war in Venezuela" to this. As I read it you're basically arguing using Venezuelan opposition as cannon fodder in a geopolitical fight against Russia and China. You don't seem to make a difference between poverty and actual civil war. And your argument "let's be bad, they will hate us anyway"... wow.
I loved America until you murdered millions in the ME/NA. Even when you bombed Serbia I didn't like it but it wasn't a total dealbreaker for me. Now you're on your way to provide weapons or even air support to a faction in Venezuela so that they can go to war. Will I blame you? You bet I will. If you want to help the people, there are peaceful ways to force Maduro to change his policies. He'd be willing to do a lot to get from under sanctions. He won't be willing to give up power, but that is not necessary to help people live better and maybe force him to hold free elections when his term is up. Then, for once, you would be the good guys.
Millions? Where did you get that number?
 

Horton

Cat
Administrator
I really don't get how you got from my "stop organizing civil war in Venezuela" to this. As I read it you're basically arguing using Venezuelan opposition as cannon fodder in a geopolitical fight against Russia and China. You don't seem to make a difference between poverty and actual civil war. And your argument "let's be bad, they will hate us anyway"... wow.
I loved America until you murdered millions in the ME/NA. Even when you bombed Serbia I didn't like it but it wasn't a total dealbreaker for me. Now you're on your way to provide weapons or even air support to a faction in Venezuela so that they can go to war. Will I blame you? You bet I will. If you want to help the people, there are peaceful ways to force Maduro to change his policies. He'd be willing to do a lot to get from under sanctions. He won't be willing to give up power, but that is not necessary to help people live better and maybe force him to hold free elections when his term is up. Then, for once, you would be the good guys.
Go earlier. America bombing Cambodia is arguably reasonable for bringing Pol Pot into power, leading to one of the worst atrocities of the 20th century.
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
Millions? Where did you get that number?
Most likely through an indirect account, AKA the casualties of the wars the US supported or outright caused over the past two decades in the region. First, there was the illegal war of aggression against Iraq in 2003 that, as pretty much everyone else told them it would happen, led to massive sectarian and ethnic strife in Iraq, constant terror attacks and an ineffective occupation ending with the US leaving Iraq under the hands of an Iranian-backed weak government that got mostly overrun by ISIS, which was made at its core by former intel operatives of Saddam, that the US fired without precaution after invading.

Then the US - alongside NATO, I’ll admit it - was opposed to Assad just enough to prevent him from ‘solving’ his demonstrations issues quickly and painfully, but not enough to actually neutralize him, putting Syria in an artificially-balanced situation where the killings could go for almost a decade before Assad’s eventual victory, when it’s pretty obvious by now that had we looked elsewhere while he shot protesters, hundreds of thousands of civilians would still be alive by now and populist governments would not be getting power in a good part of EU.

Yeah, a lot of Europeans tend to frown a bit at the US’ recent actions, in good part because we were the ones to face the migrant waves AND the terrorist attacks caused by the US’ really super smart foreign policy.
 

Heresy

Well-known member
Go earlier. America bombing Cambodia is arguably reasonable for bringing Pol Pot into power, leading to one of the worst atrocities of the 20th century.
They didn’t just do that the US gov also refused to recognize the government that overthrew Pol Pot and also supplied him and his guerrillas with arms and aid after they were ousted by Vietnam in the 70s.
 

ScreenXSurfer

Ain't no bitch who can do it like me
I'm 70% convinced that this is the reason (or the major reason) why Trump's doing it now. You have to remember that the current escalation started with Guaido proclaiming himself president after a call from Pence.
WTF!?

They didn’t just do that the US gov also refused to recognize the government that overthrew Pol Pot and also supplied him and his guerrillas with arms and aid after they were ousted by Vietnam in the 70s.
Some of that outstanding Kissinger foreign policy I'm told I should be thankful for.
 

Wakko

Well-known member
What, you didn't notice?
Vice President Pence calls Venezuelan opposition leader in show of support | Reuters
That's from January 15, before Guaido's move. WSJ has more details about it. Since it's behind a paywall here' a recap of the WSJ article from a different source:
US: Pence pledged support to Guaido in phone call
U.S. Vice President Mike Pence made a telephone call with Venezuelan opposition leader Juan Guaido the night before he declared himself interim president, The Wall Street Journal reported Friday.

Pence promised the U.S. would support Guaido, president of the National Assembly, if he took control of the government from its leader Nicolas Maduro, a senior administration official told the newspaper.

The telephone call came after a plan by Washington “developed in secret over the preceding several weeks, accompanied by talks between U.S. officials, allies, lawmakers and key Venezuelan opposition figures, including Mr. Guaido himself," the Journal said.
 

Wakko

Well-known member
Millions? Where did you get that number?
What Rufus wrote above. My main issue is with an uber-asshole called Paul Bremer and his Coalition Provisional Authority Order 2 which by firing the whole Saddam's security apparatus instantly created an army of several hundred thousand of angry, hungry, armed and trained recruits for anybody willing to pay them so they can feed their families. And then along comes a spider named Abu Musab al-Zarqawi with a bag full of money from Usama bin Laden and the aim to organize an armed resistance to US occupation of Iraq. He started what at first was Al-Qaeda in Iraq and after his death transformed itself into the Islamic State. Oh those pesky unintended consequences...
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
What Rufus wrote above. My main issue is with an uber-asshole called Paul Bremer and his Coalition Provisional Authority Order 2 which by firing the whole Saddam's security apparatus instantly created an army of several hundred thousand of angry, hungry, armed and trained recruits for anybody willing to pay them so they can feed their families. And then along comes a spider named Abu Musab al-Zarqawi with a bag full of money from Usama bin Laden and the aim to organize an armed resistance to US occupation of Iraq. He started what at first was Al-Qaeda in Iraq and after his death transformed itself into the Islamic State. Oh those pesky unintended consequences...
And we fucking called it so hard we'd dwarf Apple with all the phones we would have needed to build. The only reaction for, you know, fucking calling it beforehand? "Cheese Eating Surrender Monkeys."
 

Gumbikhan

Well-known member
Oh boi, Obi wan is comin to whoop you.
No, with politics I generally stay away from absolutes because a situation is rarely black and white even with going into Iraq however in that case his views are of going Shia JUST DO IT because it doesn’t matter what others think of us reaks of Murrican arrogance. And rather be arrogant asshats I rather be a humble nation that takes pride in itself.

What’s more as an American this whole situation is only being raised so high up so our President can utilize it as a distraction.
 
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