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The Trump-Russia Investigation Thread: Mueller Goes Terminator Edition

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  • Huh?

    Votes: 2 6.3%
  • Seriously?

    Votes: 6 18.8%
  • ... are we in some crappy technothriller?

    Votes: 23 71.9%
  • WTF?

    Votes: 1 3.1%

  • Total voters
    32
Sooo.... he was about to sentence Flynn, without being clear on the basic facts of the case? That's not good for Flynn, but it's especially bad for justice.
Given everything? It's becoming a counter-intelligence thing and the facts tend to be covered in black ink and with a lot of redaction. The last big media circus counter-intelligence case back in the '50s (if I remember right) had much of the information not available to the public and (still working off memory here) still to this day.
In all seriousness, you have a problem. The avarage person in the US needs to be more engaged in your country's political process if you believe the system as it is now is a failure, not just be spectators.
How can I explain this without sounding like an idiot, condescending, crazy, and/or being a general asshole...

Ok, there are a bunch of 'unintended consequences' and ripples in US history that led up to this, one of those 'unintended consequences' is the Progressive movement turning judicial and senatorial positions into directly elected ones to counter the Trusts basically using bought state legislature seats to install their cronies in. This didn't show the unintended consequences it created for decades.

The first (but probably not the most impact) ripple is the assassination of Huey Long, who -from all appearances- was trying to pull a pre-senile Bismark (i.e. before he tried to engineer a socialist uprising just so he can crush it with the army, or so I've heard) in Louisiana and oddly enough provide much of the foundation of the New Deal and Second New Deal. This caused a major curtail of progressive politics as anything that is considered 'too far' will get you killed in US politics.




The second ripple, and the ripple we're dealing with the most, is Reagan. A lot of what made the GOP what it is today is Reagan. FOX News being what it is (and allowing for associated networks and sites to spring up over the years), the full prosecution on the War on Drugs, and a lot more (including empowering the Dixiecrats, who eventually took over the 'asylum'). If there is anyone that started the ripple effect, then it will be Reagan. He and his cronies went out of their way to demolish/severely damage as many institutions as they could before they went out.

Well, one of the reasons that the average person in the US isn't more politically engaged is time. As I found out myself the hard way, politics takes time, and that is something of a luxury in the US as business basically took as much time as they could from the vast majority of the populous. Not only that, but the unintended consequences of having so many directly elected positions is that it partially caused an information overload for the average American. That and the 'Rural' needed someone like Huey Long on occasion to drag them into modernity but the last time that happened, the man got assassinated and his opponents pretty much reversed much of Long's policies...
 
Well, one of the reasons that the average person in the US isn't more politically engaged is time. As I found out myself the hard way, politics takes time, and that is something of a luxury in the US as business basically took as much time as they could from the vast majority of the populous. Not only that, but the unintended consequences of having so many directly elected positions is that it partially caused an information overload for the average American. That and the 'Rural' needed someone like Huey Long on occasion to drag them into modernity but the last time that happened, the man got assassinated and his opponents pretty much reversed much of Long's policies...
Ha ha! Oh wow. What's next, Aaron? Are you going to explain us savages that you civilized are really busy working and not have any time to think about politics and that the rest of us cannot understand that situation because we have no mass media and we are lazy bums in our huts?

I'll be blunt: fuck off with your exceptionalism. The rest of the developped world is in the same situation and we don't run away from our responsabilities.
 
@Aaron Fox, thank you for your reply. It does explain why the US turned into the circus it is now (to my uneducated eyes anyway), but what I'm trying to say, minus @Rufus Shinra's brand of sarcasm, is that when you hold something truly dear to you, you got to fight for it. Not you, Aaron Fox personally but all of the citizens of the USA. When we keep listening to 'oh, USA have problems but we can't change things because...' that smacks of exceptionalism to us non US citizens. Not in a good way, either.

It's going to be painful, but better a little pain now than oh, I dunno, the US imploding and taking out the rest of the world with it. Big ass country with lotsa guns, cannons and missiles going cray-cray is not a fun thing to witness.
 
@Aaron Fox, thank you for your reply. It does explain why the US turned into the circus it is now (to my uneducated eyes anyway), but what I'm trying to say, minus @Rufus Shinra's brand of sarcasm, is that when you hold something truly dear to you, you got to fight for it. Not you, Aaron Fox personally but all of the citizens of the USA. When we keep listening to 'oh, USA have problems but we can't change things because...' that smacks of exceptionalism to us non US citizens. Not in a good way, either.

It's going to be painful, but better a little pain now than oh, I dunno, the US imploding and taking out the rest of the world with it. Big ass country with lotsa guns, cannons and missiles going cray-cray is not a fun thing to witness.
The thing with the problems with the US is that it's a lot of compound problems as it were, created via ripple effects and unintended consequences from various administrations, assassinations, conflicts, and political eras in US history. With how one entire party went to coo coo land and gone full Senatorial... we're in the dark on how to stop them as you are.

It also doesn't help that the US is the democratic version of the Holy Roman Empire, and as any historian will tell you the politics within the HRE get confusing rather quickly... and that's with an elected monarchy. That and the entire bedrock and framework of US politics is well within Locke territory with a huge helping of Machiavelli.
 
The thing with the problems with the US is that it's a lot of compound problems as it were, created via ripple effects and unintended consequences from various administrations, assassinations, conflicts, and political eras in US history. With how one entire party went to coo coo land and gone full Senatorial... we're in the dark on how to stop them as you are.

It also doesn't help that the US is the democratic version of the Holy Roman Empire, and as any historian will tell you the politics within the HRE get confusing rather quickly... and that's with an elected monarchy. That and the entire bedrock and framework of US politics is well within Locke territory with a huge helping of Machiavelli.

I know I'm going to sound trite, but try. You're the USA, you guys had the Civil Rights Movement and that big ass anti-war movement during the Vietnam war. Heck, you people pump out stuff that influenced thoughts all over the world.

If you truly are America, the land of the brave and home of the free, that shining city on top of the hill you got to try. Nothing worth having can be achieved by waiting for it to be given to you. You don't have to change everything at once, you change things little by little and everyone needs to work together.

All this 'but we can't change the basis of our governing system' is bunk. You did it before and you can do it again. The constitution is not a covenant from god, it was the work of man, and works of man can and will be updated.
 
If you truly are America, the land of the brave and home of the free, that shining city on top of the hill you got to try. Nothing worth having can be achieved by waiting for it to be given to you. You don't have to change everything at once, you change things little by little and everyone needs to work together.
Just as a reminder, the whole shining city on the hill stuff is more a result of propaganda than actual exceptionalism. There are achievements just like everywhere else, but the communication to sell them as uniquely awesome and exceptional is better than everywhere else.
 
Just as a reminder, the whole shining city on the hill stuff is more a result of propaganda than actual exceptionalism. There are achievements just like everywhere else, but the communication to sell them as uniquely awesome and exceptional is better than everywhere else.

Yeah, and the level of acceptance of the baloney from its own citizenry is just... unbelievable.
 
Given everything? It's becoming a counter-intelligence thing and the facts tend to be covered in black ink and with a lot of redaction.
Uhm, was somebody indicted for espionage?
 
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Yeah, and the level of acceptance of the baloney from its own citizenry is just... unbelievable.
It's partially because there was some truth to that propaganda. From what I've heard, the best propaganda is based on truth. Exaggerated of course but based on truth.
 
It's partially because there was some truth to that propaganda. From what I've heard, the best propaganda is based on truth. Exaggerated of course but based on truth.

Go and live it up then. Turn that nugget of truth into the real deal. It is a good ideal, it would certainly be a nice reality.
 
Go and live it up then. Turn that nugget of truth into the real deal. It is a good ideal, it would certainly be a nice reality.
That... will be hard given how Senatorial the GOP has become. I wouldn't be surprised that at the situation would become similar to the February Revolution in Russia during WW1... where both the military and the citizenry overthrow the government.
 
That... will be hard given how Senatorial the GOP has become. I wouldn't be surprised that at the situation would become similar to the February Revolution in Russia during WW1... where both the military and the citizenry overthrow the government.

Perhaps that should happen. Not promoting lawlessness or whatever, just that if the current government seems intent to run the country like it's their daddy's private property, well...
 
Perhaps that should happen. Not promoting lawlessness or whatever, just that if the current government seems intent to run the country like it's their daddy's private property, well...
Problem with that is that it'll likely get what Putin wants... and I'm not wanting to give him the satisfaction. It'll likely be an option of last resort, but if the GOP are so willing to die for Trump... all alternatives would be exhausted. Doing so will ignite a Troubles style insurrection at best, a literal civil war at worst. We're just hoping that the courts go 'Let the heavens fall so Justice be Done' right now because we have no constitutional alternative. The Constitution was created to be the foundation to avoid a Roman repeat...
 
We will stop the worst of it we just can't burn down the place to do it, it will take time and effort and subject a lot of the trump base to the Socratic method but the wheel will turn and justice will be done.

The fact remains the GOP is not a effective government OTOH the Dems are several governments actively engaged with themselves, drop kicking so many incumbents requires a lot of the hard light of day, thankfully that is coming
 
We will stop the worst of it we just can't burn down the place to do it, it will take time and effort and subject a lot of the trump base to the Socratic method but the wheel will turn and justice will be done. The fact remain the GOP is not a effective government OTOH the Dems are several government, drop kicking that many incumbents requires a lot of the hard light of day, thankfully that is coming
While I hope it doesn't come to pass, it is (however likely/unlikely) probable that it would given how far the GOP has gone Senatorial. That is why I'm hoping that the courts go 'Let the Heavens Fall so Justice be Done' on the GOP as a whole. The GOP are ignoring JFK's advise on allowing peaceful revolution and it only allows for violent revolution...
 
The fact remains the GOP is not a effective government OTOH the Dems are several governments actively engaged with themselves, drop kicking so many incumbents requires a lot of the hard light of day, thankfully that is coming
I'm just reading that the strongest Dem candidate for 2020 is Joe Biden? WTH? That guy is even older than Trump, he'll be 78 in 2020, and he's reeking of establishment*. And Warren having a negative rating? Seriously, can't they find somebody half as good as Obama? They need to start pushing young, progressive people.

* also he was instrumental in the 2014 Ukraine coup, and that's very likely to blow up in his face as Ukraine continues to go down the drain. Plus he installed his sonny Hunter in the largest independent Ukrainian energy trader Burisma Holdings. I can already see the smear campaign the GOP will unleash...
 
I'm just reading that the strongest Dem candidate for 2020 is Joe Biden? WTH? That guy is even older than Trump, he'll be 78 in 2020, and he's reeking of establishment*. And Warren having a negative rating? Seriously, can't they find somebody half as good as Obama? They need to start pushing young, progressive people.

* also he was instrumental in the 2014 Ukraine coup, and that's very likely to blow up in his face as Ukraine continues to go down the drain. Plus he installed his sonny Hunter in the largest independent Ukrainian energy trader Burisma Holdings. I can already see the smear campaign the GOP will unleash...
too soon for me to have favorites lets see who wants the job first
 
too soon for me to have favorites lets see who wants the job first
I'm not sure this is the right approach, if you leave it to the candidates, you get the most skilled politician, but not necessarily the best candidate. That's what happened in 2016. Time to be proactive ;)
 
I'm just reading that the strongest Dem candidate for 2020 is Joe Biden? WTH? That guy is even older than Trump, he'll be 78 in 2020, and he's reeking of establishment*. And Warren having a negative rating? Seriously, can't they find somebody half as good as Obama? They need to start pushing young, progressive people.

* also he was instrumental in the 2014 Ukraine coup, and that's very likely to blow up in his face as Ukraine continues to go down the drain. Plus he installed his sonny Hunter in the largest independent Ukrainian energy trader Burisma Holdings. I can already see the smear campaign the GOP will unleash...
However, having someone like Joe Biden as VP would be extremely helpful in getting things done. Like JFK and LBJ. JFK was very young and LBJ knew Washington inside and out... which was quite useful in getting things done.
I'm not sure this is the right approach, if you leave it to the candidates, you get the most skilled politician, but not necessarily the best candidate. That's what happened in 2016. Time to be proactive ;)
Problem is that the best politician was also the best possible candidate, problem was that the GOP latched onto her baggage.
 
Problem is that the best politician was also the best possible candidate, problem was that the GOP latched onto her baggage.
HRC was a horrible candidate, precisely because of her baggage. I personally could never vote for somebody who reacts to somebody's murder like this:

That was her reaction to Gaddafi's death. Good for you that you're laughing Hillary, the Libyan's weren't laughing by then, and won't be laughing for a long, long time. What a psychopath.
 
HRC was a horrible candidate, precisely because of her baggage. I personally could never vote for somebody who reacts to somebody's murder like this:

That was her reaction to Gaddafi's death. Good for you that you're laughing Hillary, the Libyan's weren't laughing by then, and won't be laughing for a long, long time. What a psychopath.


The libyans were celebrating (and quite a few ought to try to dance in new jersey) at gaddafi's death, just saying. And Gaddafi wasn't just "somebody", to be clear.

Plus biden being the strongest candidate NOW plays great. Trump was amongst the least likely candidates back in the primaries. Let the new wave of democrats sharpen their axes on good ol biden before smacking them at trump.
 
Plus biden being the strongest candidate NOW plays great. Trump was amongst the least likely candidates back in the primaries. Let the new wave of democrats sharpen their axes on good ol biden before smacking them at trump.
Are you going TEAPer on us?
 
The libyans were celebrating (and quite a few ought to try to dance in new jersey) at gaddafi's death, just saying. And Gaddafi wasn't just "somebody", to be clear.
You mean the jihadists that murdered him and then went on to murder thousands more - yes, they were laughing, and Hillary with them.
And whatever was or wasn't Gaddafi, Libya had it 100 times better with him than without him. Hillary laughing at his death is for me Hillary laughing at the chaos and carnage that came with it. Still psychopath. You see, for me, the only good thing about Trump is that he kicked Hillary's ass.
 
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WTF is going on with Whitaker?
Bad news from the front at least at first:

Whitaker cleared to oversee Mueller investigation
The Justice Department has concluded that Acting Attorney General Matt Whitaker had no reason to recuse, a person familiar with the decision said.
Acting Attorney General Matt Whitaker cleared to oversee Mueller investigation
WASHINGTON — The Justice Department has concluded that Matt Whitaker, appointed by President Donald Trump as the acting attorney general, had no reason to recuse and is overseeing Robert Mueller's special counsel investigation, according to a person familiar with the decision on Thursday.

Formal notice of his role was expected to come in a letter to congressional Democrats who had said his critical comments about the Mueller investigation, made when he was a conservative commentator, require him to recuse — that is, to take himself out of any supervision of the case.

However, this puts him between a rock and a hard place. If he tries to shut down the investigation, the Democratic-held house will subpoena the shit out of him. If he recuses, then Trump will kick him out like trash and feed him to the wolves that are Trump's base...

Then more information came to light:

Twitter Post in Question
BREAKING. senior DOJ official: Whitaker has not recused from Mueller probe. After extensive review by senior officials, he did not seek formal ruling from ethics office. BUT a senior doj ethics official said it was a "close call" and he should recuse in an "abundance of caution."

Shortly after that, even more information came to light:

Twitter post in question
Conversation



Matthew Miller
@matthewamiller


This is turning into an enormous scandal. Ethics officials told Whitaker they would recommend recusal, so he set up a different group of officials (probably political appointees, but unclear) to make a different recommendation. What in the hell is going on at DOJ?
Quote Tweet
Laura Jarrett
@LauraAJarrett
Short story: Whitaker is not recusing from overseeing Mueller. But what happened to get to this point is messy - here's the backstory... (link: Whitaker chose not to recuse from overseeing Mueller probe, but ethics official considered it a 'close call' - CNNPolitics) cnn.com/2018/12/20/pol…
2:15 pm · 20 Dec 2018 · Twitter Web Client

... so, Whitaker went to a different set of officials (unclear at this time but likely political appointees) for their recommendation which is odd...
 
Mattis is out
 
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