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The Brexit thread (or All -not- quiet on the western front)

ScreenXSurfer

Ain't no bitch who can do it like me
I still have zero clue why the EU is involved in this Irish situation. It should be settled between the Irish & N. Irish people.
 

Ravan

Gone
I think we need to send parkiant
I still have zero clue why the EU is involved in this Irish situation. It should be settled between the Irish & N. Irish people.
The Republic of Ireland has already made its position pretty clear. That position being “Fuck You, Britain”. Basically, if Britain wants control of its borders, it must withdraw from the Good Friday agreement, and accept that they’ve literally invited terrorists to murder their citizens.
 

ScreenXSurfer

Ain't no bitch who can do it like me
It boggles me that 20 years of peace in a region is in danger because of bureaucracy. When I asked about this a few months ago, people tell me it's because the EU is trying to make this painful as possible on the UK and I was disgusted that literally "terrorist are going to murder citizens" is on the table because of this. And people are HOPING that happens.
 

Ravan

Gone
It boggles me that 20 years of peace in a region is in danger because of bureaucracy. When I asked about this a few months ago, people tell me it's because the EU is trying to make this painful as possible on the UK and I was disgusted that literally "terrorist are going to murder citizens" is on the table because of this. And people are HOPING that happens.
Noone is hoping that happens. We are just resigned to the fact that Little Englanders hate foreigners more than they love their fellow Brits.
 

Wakko

Well-known member
What does she have to offer in exchange? I mean really do they even understand they are asking for things with value and offering nothing in exchange, is begging what brexitiers are reduced to?
Well that's British aristocracy. They're not used to not having things their way.

It boggles me that 20 years of peace in a region is in danger because of bureaucracy. When I asked about this a few months ago, people tell me it's because the EU is trying to make this painful as possible on the UK and I was disgusted that literally "terrorist are going to murder citizens" is on the table because of this. And people are HOPING that happens.
Nobody normal hopes that it happens. But not leaving the Irish once again to the tender mercies of the British is part of responsibilities of the EU. Separating N.Ireland from either Ireland or UK will be trouble, I guess nobody thought about that when they voted for Brexit. This is not on the EU.
 
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Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
I still have zero clue why the EU is involved in this Irish situation. It should be settled between the Irish & N. Irish people.
I’ll give you a couple of clues, one of the many, many parts of the issue: Ireland is within a free movement area with most of the rest of the EU for goods, people and services. Whatever enters Ireland enters Germany, Greece, France, Spain, etc. Therefore, no single country is entilted to negociate for the access to the free movement zone. It’s the entire zone, AKA the EU, that negociates, unless Ireland wishes to leave the Union. Something to which 90+ % of the Irish, being much smarter than the Brits, say ‘Fuck No!’ to, making the issue an European one. Oh, and frankly, because the Ireland issue needed the EU to get to a point where the shootings and bombings stopped, being unable to reach that point on their own.

It’s very, very sad to see that the Brits have been utterly failing to understand that the salami tactics do not work against the EU. The British Parliament can vote with absolute unanimity against a No Deal, but a No Deal it will have unless it offers a deal that the EU deems acceptable.
 

Morphile

Well-known member
Noone is hoping that happens. We are just resigned to the fact that Little Englanders hate foreigners more than they love their fellow Brits.
Except that the only reason for this to happen is the EU letting it happen, because it has peacekeeping forces and, more importantly, an unholy assload of asterisks setting a precedent of immense accommodations for the wellbeing of the continent. Why does the Good Friday agreement have to end? What, because Britain is leaving the single market, or decided to have independent border control? Why can't these things be handled separately? Why can't the UK have a soft-but-enforcable border with the Republic of Ireland, or cede Norther Ireland, or set up border controls between North Ireland and Great Britain?

All this doom and gloom ultimately requires the EU to let it happen. Because there's multiple agreements able to be made to deal with every single problem you expect. The UK could establish trade agreements to take effect immediately upon exiting the EU, maintaining economic function seamlessly, even if there's some damage due to complications with the continental market. If there's a humanitarian disaster as a result of the cutoffs? That's on your side, because your lot predicted it would happen, and refused to accept negotiation to resolve these issues. You're blaming the UK citizenry for the damage you expect will happen to Ireland, so it stands to reason that it's perfectly acceptable to blame the Europhiles for the situation happening in the first place, because they knew it'd happen and refused to offer alternatives that'd respect the wishes of the British public.

The argument that this is demanding the benefits without the drawbacks is you being a spiteful bastard, because you're fully admitting to knowing that not taking some measures will lead to widespread suffering and numerous deaths, and yet refuse the option of bridging that gap before it goes bad. You are advocating for the damage as punishment for the British people daring to want to actually determine how their country functions without the French and Germans being in the way, who have radically different values and needs while outnumbering the UK. The Brexit people just want to be able to tell immigrants no without the EU getting in the way, while you're demanding they suffer punitive consequences from not compromising a single fucking thing to ensure the safety of the population.

There doesn't need to be the EU's specific open borders and market. Other ways of handling it exist. How else do you explain the automotive industry working the way it does, with parts from numerous separate markets being necessary to make the final product? Free trade isn't a requirement, and the point of Brexit is to be able to tell the increasingly problem-causing immigrants to fuck off because the British public don't want them there. Your statement is assuming that the Brexit voters actually understood all these consequences, and knew that spiteful bastards like you would stonewall any and all attempts at coming to alternative solutions. You are, frankly, assuming vastly too much competence from public voters, on top of assuming malice.

There don't need to be open borders, there just needs to be easy travel between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, and this can be just a simple border check that takes about a minute, turning away people who aren't in some pre-decided group (likely Irish citizens). There doesn't need to be free trade, there just needs to be market access, and the EU's free trade comes with a ludicrous amount of mandated economic restrictions. Such as the flat-out ban of any GMO products for human consumption.

It’s very, very sad to see that the Brits have been utterly failing to understand that the salami tactics do not work against the EU. The British Parliament can vote with absolute unanimity against a No Deal, but a No Deal it will have unless it offers a deal that the EU deems acceptable.
Except the situation is actually the opposite, with the UK largely demanding a No Deal thanks to May's horrible leadership and the EU trying to force the previous spectacularly horrible deal on them.

Edit:
Generally, Remain voters were more high-class, younger, more educated and not born in the UK. Brexit is the working class position, held by people with less education and more hardship. Expecting them to both know all these problems and think they'll be worse than the 2008 market crash, and earlier economic recessions, that they'd made it through before, is rather asinine. There's quite a few people who feel the damage is a price worth paying.
 
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Ravan

Gone
Except that the only reason for this to happen is the EU letting it happen, because it has peacekeeping forces and, more importantly, an unholy assload of asterisks setting a precedent of immense accommodations for the wellbeing of the continent. Why does the Good Friday agreement have to end? What, because Britain is leaving the single market, or decided to have independent border control? Why can't these things be handled separately? Why can't the UK have a soft-but-enforcable border with the Republic of Ireland, or cede Norther Ireland, or set up border controls between North Ireland and Great Britain?

All this doom and gloom ultimately requires the EU to let it happen. Because there's multiple agreements able to be made to deal with every single problem you expect. The UK could establish trade agreements to take effect immediately upon exiting the EU, maintaining economic function seamlessly, even if there's some damage due to complications with the continental market. If there's a humanitarian disaster as a result of the cutoffs? That's on your side, because your lot predicted it would happen, and refused to accept negotiation to resolve these issues. You're blaming the UK citizenry for the damage you expect will happen to Ireland, so it stands to reason that it's perfectly acceptable to blame the Europhiles for the situation happening in the first place, because they knew it'd happen and refused to offer alternatives that'd respect the wishes of the British public.

The argument that this is demanding the benefits without the drawbacks is you being a spiteful bastard, because you're fully admitting to knowing that not taking some measures will lead to widespread suffering and numerous deaths, and yet refuse the option of bridging that gap before it goes bad. You are advocating for the damage as punishment for the British people daring to want to actually determine how their country functions without the French and Germans being in the way, who have radically different values and needs while outnumbering the UK. The Brexit people just want to be able to tell immigrants no without the EU getting in the way, while you're demanding they suffer punitive consequences from not compromising a single fucking thing to ensure the safety of the population.

There doesn't need to be the EU's specific open borders and market. Other ways of handling it exist. How else do you explain the automotive industry working the way it does, with parts from numerous separate markets being necessary to make the final product? Free trade isn't a requirement, and the point of Brexit is to be able to tell the increasingly problem-causing immigrants to fuck off because the British public don't want them there. Your statement is assuming that the Brexit voters actually understood all these consequences, and knew that spiteful bastards like you would stonewall any and all attempts at coming to alternative solutions. You are, frankly, assuming vastly too much competence from public voters, on top of assuming malice.

There don't need to be open borders, there just needs to be easy travel between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, and this can be just a simple border check that takes about a minute, turning away people who aren't in some pre-decided group (likely Irish citizens). There doesn't need to be free trade, there just needs to be market access, and the EU's free trade comes with a ludicrous amount of mandated economic restrictions. Such as the flat-out ban of any GMO products for human consumption.


Except the situation is actually the opposite, with the UK largely demanding a No Deal thanks to May's horrible leadership and the EU trying to force the previous spectacularly horrible deal on them.

Edit:
Generally, Remain voters were more high-class, younger, more educated and not born in the UK. Brexit is the working class position, held by people with less education and more hardship. Expecting them to both know all these problems and think they'll be worse than the 2008 market crash, and earlier economic recessions, that they'd made it through before, is rather asinine. There's quite a few people who feel the damage is a price worth paying.
Do you have to use 500 words to say the 5 you want?

Okay:
1. Good Friday says no border between NI and the Republic
2. The DUP, which have May and the Tories by the balls, since if they go May is no longer PM say no border between NI and the rest of the UK.
3. both the Republic and the EU say no border between the EU and the Republic.

May is unable to affect 3, and unwilling to lose her job by affecting 2, therefore she has chosen to fuck up 1. And do you know what happens when one side unilaterally and arbitrarily breaks a treaty that ended hostilities? Hostilities start again.

To allow Britain to have benefits without responsibilities would be the end of the EU, and it is noone’s responsibility to commit political suicide to keep the Tories in power in the UK when they could just put the border between NI and the rest of the UK and accept their electoral drubbing instead.

The EU has no objections whatsoever to a hard border between NI and the rest of the UK. That’s purely May not wanting to lose her majority in parliament.

Brexit is the position of the old, the stupid, and the racist.
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
Except the situation is actually the opposite, with the UK largely demanding a No Deal thanks to May's horrible leadership and the EU trying to force the previous spectacularly horrible deal on them.
Lol. Now, if we leave your silly fanfiction and get back to the real world, the EU can’t force a deal if UK wants to go no deal and commit economic suicide. We’ll just look sadly at the Brits when they actually cut themselves from the logistics needed for their industry and supermakets to remain supplied.

But, heh, the Brits have recruited a transport company without any ship to facilitate the transportation of goods across the Channel, so it’ll go alright.
Generally, Remain voters were more high-class, younger, more educated and not born in the UK. Brexit is the working class position, held by people with less education and more hardship. Expecting them to both know all these problems and think they'll be worse than the 2008 market crash, and earlier economic recessions, that they'd made it through before, is rather asinine. There's quite a few people who feel the damage is a price worth paying.
Yes, we knew already that the Leave voters did not know what the hell they were getting themselves into, that’s old news. They’ll just be the ones to pay for the lies of their Eton-educated masters who actually have foreign passports too and have already stated that they’ll get the fuck out if when the mess goes bad.
 

Wakko

Well-known member
Generally, Remain voters were more high-class, younger, more educated and not born in the UK. Brexit is the working class position, held by people with less education and more hardship. Expecting them to both know all these problems and think they'll be worse than the 2008 market crash, and earlier economic recessions, that they'd made it through before, is rather asinine. There's quite a few people who feel the damage is a price worth paying.
Well, income inequality leads to all kinds of stupid games and stupid prizes. Brexit, Trump, semi-fascists gaining seats in legislature all over Europe - that's all the result of significant parts of population not behaving rationally because they a) don't have access to objective information, and b) their bad situation, anger and fear are used to manipulate them. Let that be a lesson to all of us - we all are parts of one society and hardships of our fellow citizens are our problem, too. If the wealthier, better educated part of society laughs at the less fortunate part it gets what it deserves. That's the beauty of democracy :)
 

Horton

Administrator
Administrator
Well, income inequality leads to all kinds of stupid games and stupid prizes. Brexit, Trump, semi-fascists gaining seats in legislature all over Europe - that's all the result of significant parts of population not behaving rationally because they a) don't have access to objective information, and b) their bad situation, anger and fear are used to manipulate them.
Oddly enough, both A and B are kind of interlinked, as if they're being worked to death at stupid long hours, which is the case with quite a few Americans I've known...they're not going to get time to look at that information, even if they do have access to it, as that takes effort that they're unlikely to want to spend on studying. They're just going to look at the parties and pick which ones seem to be offering a better life and a way out, but often due to the complex nature of politics and economics, things aren't that simple...
 

Simonbob

NOPE!
When It comes to Brexit, I'm wondering why people thing the EU has anything to offer the UK, anyway? As best I can tell, given how things are going across the EU, it's on the verge of collapse anyway. The UK should get out while the getting's good.

As for the whole Irish part of this debate, I'm aware that there aren't that many Irish in Ireland, so they're not going to do much. Many immigrants, who won't care.

After all, with the Musilm rape gangs, and acid attacks, and all that, wanting to stop those kinds getting into your country is something everybody should be in favor of.



Well, income inequality leads to all kinds of stupid games and stupid prizes. Brexit, Trump, semi-fascists gaining seats in legislature all over Europe - that's all the result of significant parts of population not behaving rationally because they a) don't have access to objective information, and b) their bad situation, anger and fear are used to manipulate them. Let that be a lesson to all of us - we all are parts of one society and hardships of our fellow citizens are our problem, too. If the wealthier, better educated part of society laughs at the less fortunate part it gets what it deserves. That's the beauty of democracy :)
You're assuming the Left is correct. I disagree.

One thing that changes somebody's perspective, in my experience, is working in a very practical, physical, job. It told me that everything costs. Everything. And, if I couldn't see where I was paying, I was being screwed. So, when I'm offered "Free" Healthcare, or Welfare, I know it's a scam.

Once you realise that, you can see that most of the things that the Left swears by, are really bad for us.

The " wealthier, better educated part of society" includes my little sister, who has a degree, when I do not. Her actual understanding, however? Not so good.
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
When It comes to Brexit, I'm wondering why people thing the EU has anything to offer the UK, anyway? As best I can tell, given how things are going across the EU, it's on the verge of collapse anyway. The UK should get out while the getting's good.
Riiiiight. It’s been decades pundits explain us the EU is always on the verge of collapse. What was the saying? One good kick in the door and the rotten house will collapse? *rolls eyes*
The " wealthier, better educated part of society" includes my little sister, who has a degree, when I do not. Her actual understanding, however? Not so good.
And here we have Dunning-Kruger in action. :)

By the way, how are your factories going to work when they produce parts for European factories using other parts coming from Europe, when your food comes from Europe and when the rest of the planet laughs at Britannia while suggesting trade deals that are infinitely worse than anything UK could and did obtain with them through EU membership?

Your country’s wealth doesn’t come from your ‘practical, physical, job’, because Indian and Chinese workers do more, better and cheaper. It comes from all the high value jobs that pay for your lifestyle and on which you spit. The jobs that your silly decision will fuck over, bringing UK back to a country with no comparative advantage, uncompetitive industry, bad diplomatic situation and without much to offer.
 

Chatokay

Self-proclaimed FiC official absinthe provider :)
What does she have to offer in exchange? I mean really do they even understand they are asking for things with value and offering nothing in exchange, is begging what brexitiers are reduced to?
They simply don't understand that they can't impose their way to the EU anymore.

I still have zero clue why the EU is involved in this Irish situation. It should be settled between the Irish & N. Irish people.
As the duck said, because Ireland is in the EU, and as such we will support them.

It boggles me that 20 years of peace in a region is in danger because of bureaucracy. When I asked about this a few months ago, people tell me it's because the EU is trying to make this painful as possible on the UK and I was disgusted that literally "terrorist are going to murder citizens" is on the table because of this. And people are HOPING that happens.
Nope, the UK government is actually making it as painful as possible for its citizens. Not even trying, actually doing everything they can to make it happens. The EU made several proposals to avoid this, that were rejected by the Brits.

Except that the only reason for this to happen is the EU letting it happen
Oh yes, just like you would let someone take a bullet because you didn't step in front of them to take it in their stead. Seriously…

Why does the Good Friday agreement have to end?
Because DUP and Tories want it to end, not the EU. On the contrary the EU made proposals to keep it, proposals that were rejected by, guess who ? The Dup and brexiters.

Why can't the UK have a soft-but-enforcable border with the Republic of Ireland
How ?
or cede Norther Ireland, or set up border controls between North Ireland and Great Britain?
Maybe because neither the DUP nor the brexiters want it ?

All this doom and gloom ultimately requires the EU to let it happen
Again, no. An agreement was reached, and then was rejected by the British parliament. They are the one, not only letting it happen, but actively making it happen.

Because there's multiple agreements able to be made to deal with every single problem you expect
Such as ?

The UK could establish trade agreements to take effect immediately upon exiting the EU
They tried, with non-EU countries, care to remind us how it went ?

If there's a humanitarian disaster as a result of the cutoffs? That's on your side, because your lot predicted it would happen, and refused to accept negotiation to resolve these issues.
Again, nope. Your government is the sole responsible. It is it who decided to activate Article 50, for the benefit of a minority of the UK people. It is it who decided to not make any concessions. It is it who rejected an accord that was the best for both parties involved, just because they wanted everything, while giving nothing.

You're blaming the UK citizenry for the damage you expect will happen to Ireland
They did vote for Brexit, so yes, they are responsible.

so it stands to reason that it's perfectly acceptable to blame the Europhiles for the situation happening in the first place, because they knew it'd happen and refused to offer alternatives that'd respect the wishes of the British public.
Negotiations are about compromises, something that the UK refused to understand. Now, they pay the price, it is sad for the majority who didn't vote for this mess, but it is on the sole responsibility of your government.

The argument that this is demanding the benefits without the drawbacks is you being a spiteful bastard, because you're fully admitting to knowing that not taking some measures will lead to widespread suffering and numerous deaths, and yet refuse the option of bridging that gap before it goes bad.
We tried to bridge the gap, numerous times. Only to have the Brits refuse, or for them to demand for everything without giving anything in return. Face the truth, you're not in a position to make diktats anymore.

You are advocating for the damage as punishment for the British people
We don't need to, your government is doing it quite well.

The Brexit people just want to be able to tell immigrants no without the EU getting in the way
They can already, they can check who enter their frontiers, as thy are not in Schengen.

while you're demanding they suffer punitive consequences from not compromising a single fucking thing to ensure the safety of the population.
We're not, it is simply a consequences of their actions, something they were told would happen.

There doesn't need to be the EU's specific open borders and market. Other ways of handling it exist
As such ?
Free trade isn't a requirement
It is if you want to get the advantages that come with it.

Your statement is assuming that the Brexit voters actually understood all these consequences
No one forced them to believe the lies Leave told them. No one forced them to reject any sane and logical statement after Brexit. They may have not understood, which is very likely, but they chose to not understand, they refused to understand.

here don't need to be open borders, there just needs to be easy travel between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland, and this can be just a simple border check that takes about a minute
So, a border.

There doesn't need to be free trade, there just needs to be market access
There will be, just with customs checks and import taxes.

enerally, Remain voters were more high-class, younger, more educated
Brexit is the working class position, held by people with less education
Which give more strength to the idea that leavers didn't knew what they were doing. And since they stil don't know…

Expecting them to both know all these problems and think they'll be worse than the 2008 market crash, and earlier economic recessions, that they'd made it through before, is rather asinine
They were told, they chose to ignore all the warnings, they can't come and whine now.

TL;DR
We have here a perfect example of the brexiters mentality, blaming others for what is their sole responsibility and doing. @Morphile, it is clear to me that you lack the proper state of mind to fully understand the situation actually happening, I can only strongly suggest that you do some adequate researches on the subject.

As best I can tell, given how things are going across the EU, it's on the verge of collapse anyway
Ah yes, any days now, after all, it's been only decades europhobes are saying this…
 

Chatokay

Self-proclaimed FiC official absinthe provider :)
At this point, I feel only the Queen stepping in, and I mean really stepping in, would be able to fix this mess. And I am in the opinion that she wouldn't hesitate to do so if the only consequences was for her throne, I do believe she have the courage needed for it. But sadly her throne wouldn't be the only collateral damage, but the whole monarchy as well, so she have her hands tied.
 

Wakko

Well-known member
You're assuming the Left is correct. I disagree.

One thing that changes somebody's perspective, in my experience, is working in a very practical, physical, job. It told me that everything costs. Everything. And, if I couldn't see where I was paying, I was being screwed. So, when I'm offered "Free" Healthcare, or Welfare, I know it's a scam.
In my country (Slovakia) and in most of EU health care insurance is both compulsory and 100% solidarity-based, meaning that everybody pays according to their means and draws according to their needs. So if you make a lot of money then yes, you're being screwed out of it probably more than would be necessary. But you still have a lot. And if you're one of the less fortunate then you actually benefit from the system - you pay a little and you get the same health care as those who pay much more. So in your case, when doing a lower-paid physical job, you would benefit from our kind of UHC.
Also, you can see what and where you're paying, to the last cent. You just can't decide not to pay.
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
In my country (Slovakia) and in most of EU health care insurance is both compulsory and 100% solidarity-based, meaning that everybody pays according to their means and draws according to their needs. So if you make a lot of money then yes, you're being screwed out of it probably more than would be necessary. But you still have a lot. And if you're one of the less fortunate then you actually benefit from the system - you pay a little and you get the same health care as those who pay much more. So in your case, when doing a lower-paid physical job, you would benefit from our kind of UHC.
Also, you can see what and where you're paying, to the last cent. You just can't decide not to pay.
And it's actually much more efficient in terms of spent money:



As you can see, the colonials spend twice as much taxes on healthcare per capita than the rest of the developped country while having not only lower life expectancy, but one that is lowering year after year. Morality of the story? Don't skimp on mandatory maintenance of your industry's most important part (workers) or you'll simply end up paying more later.
 

t-dugong

Beach bum, Esq.
As for the whole Irish part of this debate, I'm aware that there aren't that many Irish in Ireland, so they're not going to do much. Many immigrants, who won't care.
I didn't realize 84.5% of the population means Irish people aren't the majority in their own country. Sure, there's only about 5 million people in Ireland but all that means is that the population is not that dense compared to the UK.
 

Baron Steakpuncher

Proletarian Puncher of Steaks
Author
I didn't realize 84.5% of the population means Irish people aren't the majority in their own country. Sure, there's only about 5 million people in Ireland but all that means is that the population is not that dense compared to the UK.
If you want to be technical then speakers of "Irish" Gaelic (we should probably just call it gaelic at this point) ARE a minority in their own country. Last monoglot died in the 90's and I think only 5-10% use it as a everyday language.
 

t-dugong

Beach bum, Esq.
If you want to be technical then speakers of "Irish" Gaelic (we should probably just call it gaelic at this point) ARE a minority in their own country. Last monoglot died in the 90's and I think only 5-10% use it as a everyday language.
Ah, is that what @Simonbob was talking about? Sorry I misunderstood what you said then, Simon.
 

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