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Study: US Has Killed More Than 20 Million People in 37 “Victim Nations” Since World War II

Josef

Totally Not A Stalinist

It's quite amazing that the US seems fine with calling out leftists for casualties invoked by policies and yet can't clear it's own room before doing so. If Lenin is "bad", why isn't Kissinger or Bush?

I await the inevitable citations taken straight from Courtois book by non leftists to try and defend this.
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
So, let's check the sources.
NOTES


Afghanistan


1.Mark Zepezauer, Boomerang (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 2003), p.135.


2.Chronology of American State Terrorism
http://www.intellnet.org/resources/american_
terrorism/ChronologyofTerror.html



3.Soviet War in Afghanistan
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in_Afghanistan


4.Mark Zepezauer, The CIA’S Greatest Hits (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 1994), p.76


5.U.S Involvement in Afghanistan, Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_war_in Afghanistan)


6.The CIA’s Intervention in Afghanistan, Interview with Zbigniew Brzezinski, Le Nouvel Observateur, Paris, 15-21 January 1998, Posted at globalresearch.ca 15 October 2001, http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/BRZ110A.html


7.William Blum, Rogue State (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 2000), p.5


8.Unknown News, http://www.unknownnews.net/casualtiesw.html


Angola


1.Howard W. French “From Old Files, a New Story of the U.S. Role in the Angolan War” New York Times 3/31/02


2.Angolan Update, American Friends Service Committee FS, 11/1/99 flyer.


3.Norman Solomon, War Made Easy, (John Wiley & Sons, 2005) p. 82-83.


4.Lance Selfa, U.S. Imperialism, A Century of Slaughter, International Socialist Review Issue 7, Spring 1999 (as appears in Third world Traveler www. thirdworldtraveler.com/American_Empire/Century_Imperialism.html)


5. Jeffress Ramsay, Africa , (Dushkin/McGraw Hill Guilford Connecticut), 1997, p. 144-145.


6.Mark Zepezauer, The CIA’S Greatest Hits (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 1994), p.54.


Argentina : See South America: Operation Condor


Bolivia


1. Phil Gunson, Guardian, 5/6/02,
http://www.guardian.co.uk/archive /article/0,4273,41-07884,00.html


2.Jerry Meldon, Return of Bolilvia’s Drug – Stained Dictator, Consortium,www.consortiumnews.com/archives/story40.html.


Brazil See South America: Operation Condor


Cambodia



1.Virtual Truth Commissiion http://www.geocities.com/~virtualtruth/ .


2.David Model, President Richard Nixon, Henry Kissinger, and the Bombing of Cambodia excerpted from the book Lying for Empire How to Commit War Crimes With A Straight Face, Common Courage Press, 2005, paperhttp://thirdworldtraveler.com/American_Empire/Nixon_Cambodia_LFE.html.


3.Noam Chomsky, Chomsky on Cambodia under Pol Pot, etc.,http//zmag.org/forums/chomcambodforum.htm.


Chad


1.William Blum, Rogue State (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 2000), p. 151-152 .


2.Richard Keeble, Crimes Against Humanity in Chad, Znet/Activism 12/4/06http://www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=11560&sectionID=1).


Chile


1.Parenti, Michael, The Sword and the Dollar (New York, St. Martin’s Press, 1989) p. 56.


2.William Blum, Rogue State (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 2000), p. 142-143.


3.Moreorless: Heroes and Killers of the 20th Century, Augusto Pinochet Ugarte,


http://www.moreorless.au.com/killers/pinochet.html


4.Associated Press,Pincohet on 91st Birthday, Takes Responsibility for Regimes’s Abuses, Dayton Daily News 11/26/06


5.Chalmers Johnson, Blowback, The Costs and Consequences of American Empire (New York: Henry Holt and Company, 2000), p. 18.


China: See Korea


Colombia



1.Chronology of American State Terrorism, p.2


http://www.intellnet.org/resources/american_terrorism/ChronologyofTerror.html).


2.William Blum, Rogue State (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 2000), p. 163.


3.Millions Killed by Imperialism Washington Post May 6, 2002)http://www.etext.org./Politics/MIM/rail/impkills.html


4.Gabriella Gamini, CIA Set Up Death Squads in Colombia Times Newspapers Limited, Dec. 5, 1996,www.edu/CommunicationsStudies/ben/news/cia/961205.death.html).


5.Virtual Truth Commission, 1991


Human Rights Watch Report: Colombia’s Killer Networks–The Military-Paramilitary Partnership).


Cuba


1.St. James Encyclopedia of Popular Culture – on Bay of Pigs Invasionhttp://bookrags.com/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion.


2.Wikipedia http://bookrags.com/Bay_of_Pigs_Invasion#Casualties.


Democratic Republic of Congo (Formerly Zaire)


1.F. Jeffress Ramsey, Africa (Guilford Connecticut, 1997), p. 85


2. Anup Shaw The Democratic Republic of Congo, 10/31/2003)http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/Africa/DRC.asp)


3.Kevin Whitelaw, A Killing in Congo, U. S. News and World Reporthttp://www.usnews.com/usnews/doubleissue/mysteries/patrice.htm


4.William Blum, Killing Hope (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 1995), p 158-159.


5.Ibid.,p. 260


6.Ibid.,p. 259


7.Ibid.,p.262


8.David Pickering, “World War in Africa, 6/26/02,
www.9-11peace.org/bulletin.php3


9.William D. Hartung and Bridget Moix, Deadly Legacy; U.S. Arms to Africa and the Congo War, Arms Trade Resource Center, January , 2000www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/congo.htm


Dominican Republic


1.Norman Solomon, (untitled) Baltimore Sun April 26, 2005
http://www.globalpolicy.org/empire/history/2005/0426spincycle.htm
Intervention Spin Cycle


2.Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Power_Pack


3.William Blum, Killing Hope (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 1995), p. 175.


4.Mark Zepezauer, The CIA’S Greatest Hits (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 1994), p.26-27.


East Timor


1.Virtual Truth Commission, http://www.geocities.com/~virtualtruth/date4.htm


2.Matthew Jardine, Unraveling Indonesia, Nonviolent Activist, 1997)


3.Chronology of American State Terrorismhttp://www.intellnet.org/resources/american_terrorism/ChronologyofTerror.html


4.William Blum, Killing Hope (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 1995), p. 197.


5.US trained butchers of Timor, The Guardian, London. Cited by The Drudge Report, September 19, 1999. http://www.geocities.com/~virtualtruth/indon.htm


El Salvador


1.Robert T. Buckman, Latin America 2003, (Stryker-Post Publications Baltimore 2003) p. 152-153.


2.William Blum, Rogue State (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 2000), p. 54-55.


3.El Salvador, Wikipediahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/El_Salvador#The_20th_century_and_beyond)


4.Virtual Truth Commissiion http://www.geocities.com/~virtualtruth/.


Grenada


1.Mark Zepezauer, The CIA’S Greatest Hits (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 1994), p. 66-67.


2.Stephen Zunes, The U.S. Invasion of Grenada,http://wwwfpif.org/papers/grenada2003.html .


Guatemala


1.Virtual Truth Commissiion http://www.geocities.com/~virtualtruth/


2.Ibid.


3.Mark Zepezauer, The CIA’S Greatest Hits (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 1994), p.2-13.


4.Robert T. Buckman, Latin America 2003 (Stryker-Post Publications Baltimore 2003) p. 162.


5.Douglas Farah, Papers Show U.S. Role in Guatemalan Abuses, Washington Post Foreign Service, March 11, 1999, A 26


Haiti


1.Francois Duvalier,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/François_Duvalier#Reign_of_terror).


2.Mark Zepezauer, The CIA’S Greatest Hits (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 1994), p 87.


3.William Blum, Haiti 1986-1994: Who Will Rid Me of This Turbulent Priest,http://www.doublestandards.org/blum8.html


Honduras


1.William Blum, Rogue State (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 2000), p. 55.


2.Reports by Country: Honduras, Virtual Truth Commissionhttp://www.geocities.com/~virtualtruth/honduras.htm


3.James A. Lucas, Torture Gets The Silence Treatment, Countercurrents, July 26, 2004.


4.Gary Cohn and Ginger Thompson, Unearthed: Fatal Secrets, Baltimore Sun, reprint of a series that appeared June 11-18, 1995 in Jack Nelson-Pallmeyer, School of Assassins, p. 46 Orbis Books 2001.


5.Michael Dobbs, Negroponte’s Time in Honduras at Issue, Washington Post, March 21, 2005


Hungary


1.Edited by Malcolm Byrne, The 1956 Hungarian Revoluiton: A history in Documents November 4, 2002http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB76/index2.htm


2.Wikipedia The Free Encyclopedia,
http://www.answers.com/topic/hungarian-revolution-of-1956


Indonesia


1.Virtual Truth Commission http://www.geocities.com/~virtualtruth/.


2.Editorial, Indonesia’s Killers, The Nation, March 30, 1998.


3.Matthew Jardine, Indonesia Unraveling, Non Violent Activist Sept–Oct, 1997 (Amnesty) 2/7/07.


4.Sison, Jose Maria, Reflections on the 1965 Massacre in Indonesia, p. 5.http://qc.indymedia.org/mail.php?id=5602;


5.Annie Pohlman, Women and the Indonesian Killings of 1965-1966: Gender Variables and Possible Direction for Research, p.4,http://coombs.anu.edu.au/SpecialProj/ASAA/biennial-conference/2004/Pohlman-A-ASAA.pdf


6.Peter Dale Scott, The United States and the Overthrow of Sukarno, 1965-1967, Pacific Affairs, 58, Summer 1985, pages 239-264.http://www.namebase.org/scott.


7.Mark Zepezauer, The CIA’S Greatest Hits (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 1994), p.30.


Iran


1.Geoff Simons, Iraq from Sumer to Saddam, 1996, St. Martins Press, NY p. 317.


2.Chronology of American State Terrorismhttp://www.intellnet.org/resources/american_terrorism/ChronologyofTerror.html.


3.BBC 1988: US Warship Shoots Down Iranian Airlinerhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/default.stm )


Iraq


Iran-Iraq War



1.Michael Dobbs, U.S. Had Key role in Iraq Buildup, Washington Post December 30, 2002, p A01 http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A52241-2002Dec29?language=printer


2.Global Security.Org , Iran Iraq War (1980-1980)globalsecurity.org/military/world/war/iran-iraq.htm.


U.S. Iraq War and Sanctions


1.Ramsey Clark, The Fire This Time (New York, Thunder’s Mouth), 1994, p.31-32


2.Ibid., p. 52-54


3.Ibid., p. 43


4.Anthony Arnove, Iraq Under Siege, (South End Press Cambridge MA 2000). p. 175.


5.Food and Agricultural Organizaiton, The Children are Dying, 1995 World View Forum, Internationa Action Center, International Relief Association, p. 78


6.Anthony Arnove, Iraq Under Siege, South End Press Cambridge MA 2000. p. 61.


7.David Cortright, A Hard Look at Iraq Sanctions December 3, 2001, The Nation.


U.S-Iraq War 2003-?


1.Jonathan Bor 654,000 Deaths Tied to Iraq War Baltimore Sun , October 11,2006


2.News http://www.unknownnews.net/casualties.html


Israeli-Palestinian War


1.Post-1967 Palestinian & Israeli Deaths from Occupation & Violence May 16, 2006 http://globalavoidablemortality.blogspot.com/2006/05/post-1967-palestinian-israeli-deaths.html)


2.Chronology of American State Terrorism


http://www.intellnet.org/resources/american_terrorism/ChronologyofTerror.html


Korea


1.James I. Matray Revisiting Korea: Exposing Myths of the Forgotten War, Korean War Teachers Conference: The Korean War, February 9, 2001http://www.truman/library.org/Korea/matray1.htm


2.William Blum, Killing Hope (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 1995), p. 46


3.Kanako Tokuno, Chinese Winter Offensive in Korean War – the Debacle of American Strategy, ICE Case Studies Number 186, May, 2006http://www.american.edu/ted/ice/chosin.htm.


4.John G. Stroessinger, Why Nations go to War, (New York; St. Martin’s Press), p. 99)


5.Britannica Concise Encyclopedia, as reported in Answers.comhttp://www.answers.com/topic/Korean-war


6.Exploring the Environment: Korean Enigmawww.cet.edu/ete/modules/korea/kwar.html)


7.S. Brian Wilson, Who are the Real Terrorists? Virtual Truth Commissonhttp://www.geocities.com/~virtualtruth/


8.Korean War Casualty Statistics www.century china.com/history/krwarcost.html)


9.S. Brian Wilson, Documenting U.S. War Crimes in North Korea (Veterans for Peace Newsletter) Spring, 2002) http://www.veteransforpeace.org/


Laos


1.William Blum Rogue State (Maine, Common Cause Press) p. 136


2.Chronology of American State Terrorismhttp://www.intellnet.org/resources/american_terrorism/ChronologyofTerror.html


3.Fred Branfman, War Crimes in Indochina and our Troubled National Soul


www.wagingpeace.org/articles/2004/08/00_branfman_us-warcrimes-indochina.htm).


Nepal


1.Conn Hallinan, Nepal & the Bush Administration: Into Thin Air, February 3, 2004


fpif.org/commentary/2004/0402nepal.html.


2.Human Rights Watch, Nepal’s Civil War: the Conflict Resumes, March 2006 )


http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/03/28/nepal13078.htm.


3.Wayne Madsen, Possible CIA Hand in the Murder of the Nepal Royal Family, India Independent Media Center, September 25, 2001http://india.indymedia.org/en/2002/09/2190.shtml.


Nicaragua


1.Virtual Truth Commission
http://www.geocities.com/~virtualtruth/.


2.Timeline Nicaragua
www.stanford.edu/group/arts/nicaragua/discovery_eng/timeline/).


3.Chronology of American State Terrorism,
http://www.intellnet.org/resources/american_terrorism/ChronologyofTerror.html.


4.William Blum, Nicaragua 1981-1990 Destabilization in Slow Motion


www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/Nicaragua_KH.html.


5.Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopedia,
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Iran-Contra_Affair.


Pakistan


1.John G. Stoessinger, Why Nations Go to War, (New York: St. Martin’s Press), 1974 pp 157-172.


2.Asad Ismi, A U.S. – Financed Military Dictatorship, The CCPA Monitor, June 2002, Canadian Centre for Policy Alternatives http://www.policyaltematives.ca)www.ckln.fm/~asadismi/pakistan.html


3.Mark Zepezauer, Boomerang (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 2003), p.123, 124.


4.Arjum Niaz ,When America Look the Other Way by,


www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=2821&sectionID=1


5.Leo Kuper, Genocide (Yale University Press, 1981), p. 79.


6.Bangladesh Liberation War , Wikipedia, the Free Encyclopediahttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bangladesh_Liberation_War#USA_and_USSR)


Panama


1.Mark Zepezauer, The CIA’s Greatest Hits, (Odonian Press 1998) p. 83.


2.William Blum, Rogue State (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 2000), p.154.


3.U.S. Military Charged with Mass Murder, The Winds 9/96,www.apfn.org/thewinds/archive/war/a102896b.html


4.Mark Zepezauer, CIA’S Greatest Hits (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 1994), p.83.


Paraguay See South America: Operation Condor


Philippines


1.Romeo T. Capulong, A Century of Crimes Against the Filipino People, Presentation, Public Interest Law Center, World Tribunal for Iraq Trial in New York City on August 25,2004.
http://www.peoplejudgebush.org/files/RomeoCapulong.pdf).


2.Roland B. Simbulan The CIA in Manila – Covert Operations and the CIA’s Hidden Hisotry in the Philippines Equipo Nizkor Information – Derechos, derechos.org/nizkor/filipinas/doc/cia.


South America: Operation Condor


1.John Dinges, Pulling Back the Veil on Condor, The Nation, July 24, 2000.


2.Virtual Truth Commission, Telling the Truth for a Better Americawww.geocities.com/~virtualtruth/condor.htm)


3.Operation Condorhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Condor#US_involvement).


Sudan


1.Mark Zepezauer, Boomerang, (Monroe, Maine: Common Courage Press, 2003), p. 30, 32,34,36.


2.The Black Commentator, Africa Action The Tale of Two Genocides: The Failed US Response to Rwanda and Darfur, 11 August 2006http://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/091706X.shtml.


Uruguay See South America: Operation Condor


Vietnam



1.Mark Zepezauer, The CIA’S Greatest Hits (Monroe, Maine:Common Courage Press,1994), p 24


2.Casualties – US vs NVA/VC,
http://www.rjsmith.com/kia_tbl.html.


3.Brian Wilson, Virtual Truth Commission
http://www.geocities.com/~virtualtruth/


4.Fred Branfman, U.S. War Crimes in Indochiona and our Duty to Truth August 26, 2004


www.zmag.org/content/print_article.cfm?itemID=6105&sectionID=1


5.David K Shipler, Robert McNamara and the Ghosts of Vietnamnytimes.com/library/world/asia/081097vietnam-mcnamara.html


Yugoslavia


1.Sara Flounders, Bosnia Tragedy:The Unknown Role of the Pentagon in NATO in the Balkans (New York: International Action Center) p. 47-75


2.James A. Lucas, Media Disinformation on the War in Yugoslavia: The Dayton Peace Accords Revisited, Global Research, September 7, 2005 http://www.globalresearch.ca/index.php?context=
viewArticle&code=LUC20050907&articleId=899


3.Yugoslav Wars in 1990s
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yugoslav_wars.


4.George Kenney, The Bosnia Calculation: How Many Have Died? Not nearly as many as some would have you think., NY Times Magazine, April 23, 1995


http://www.balkan-archive.org.yu/politics/
war_crimes/srebrenica/bosnia_numbers.html
)


5.Chronology of American State Terrorism


http://www.intellnet.org/resources/american_terrorism/
ChronologyofTerror.html.


6.Croatian War of Independence, Wikipedia
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croatian_War_of_Independence


7.Human Rights Watch, New Figures on Civilian Deaths in Kosovo War, (February 7, 2000) http://www.hrw.org/press/2000/02/nato207.htm.
Riiiiiight.

Let's check the other articles on that website:
Riiiiiiight.

Try harder, troll. Frakking n00b.
 

Josef

Totally Not A Stalinist
Oh look, I went searching for a total body count and that was the first site that came up on Google. It's not like the citations listed here are false.

Are we really denying American foreign policy isn't reasonable for millions of deaths? Iraq, Libya, Vietnam anybody?

My Lai Massacre? Trail Of Tears? No Gun Ri Massacre?

And it's not like the US don't try and cover this up.
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
Oh look, I went searching for a total body count and that was the first site that came up on Google. It's not like the citations listed here are false.

Are we really denying American foreign policy isn't reasonable for millions of deaths? Iraq, Libya, Vietnam anybody?

My Lai Massacre? Trail Of Tears? No Gun Ri Massacre?

And it's not like the US don't try and cover this up.
This was some nice trolling, but could you try to at least be as @Sarcobite and own up to said trolling?
 

Wakko

Well-known member
This was some nice trolling, but could you try to at least be as @Sarcobite and own up to said trolling?
Aaaand you go again. No own argument, just ad hominem. You're the troll, man. Everybody knows it, everybody sees it, two forums have already made it official. I've taken a look at the sources, most of them seem quite OK. Considering that it's been almost 75 years since WWII, the cited number is not that surprising.
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
Aaaand you go again. No own argument, just ad hominem. You're the troll, man. Everybody knows it, everybody sees it, two forums have already made it official. I've taken a look at the sources, most of them seem quite OK. Considering that it's been almost 75 years since WWII, the cited number is not that surprising.
And then you look at the sources from his site that I listed, and then you realize what kind of bullcrap his website was. But wait, am I now a Murikan ultranationalist because I don't bash the US at every single moment for any reason?
 

Mark Poe

The majestic cock
Author
And then you look at the sources from his site that I listed, and then you realize what kind of bullcrap his website was. But wait, am I now a Murikan ultranationalist because I don't bash the US at every single moment for any reason?
No, he's just demanding you to go though a point by point refutation, along with a battery of citations (explained of course) of your own.

Even Occidental Flame gives citations and explanations in his heyday.
 
C

Celene

Guest
And then you look at the sources from his site that I listed, and then you realize what kind of bullcrap his website was. But wait, am I now a Murikan ultranationalist because I don't bash the US at every single moment for any reason?
when discussing the potential deaths of many millions of people by potentially wrongful means, it isn't something I'd call "Every single moment" or "Any reason" and if it's true and you aren't bashing them for it, that indeed is very good grounds for claims of ultra nationalism and such.
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
No, he's just demanding you to go though a point by point refutation, along with a battery of citations (explained of course) of your own.

Even Occidental Flame gives citations and explanations in his heyday.
Oh wonderful, so when the obvious troll account posts a source that litteraly has the following articles:

U.S. Military Adventure Against Venezuela Must be Stopped
Feb 15, 2019
Venezuela as the Pivot for New Internationalism?
Feb 14, 2019
Imperialist Aggression & What We Can Learn from the Attempted Coup Against Venezuela
Feb 13, 2019
US Navy Challenges China in the South China Sea
Feb 13, 2019
US Led War in Somalia: U.S. Africa Command (AFRICOM) Airstrikes Allegedly “Against Terrorists”
Feb 11, 2019
Venezuela: The U.S.’s 68th Regime Change Disaster

A website that describes itself as:
In an era of media disinformation, our focus has essentially been to center on the “unspoken truth”.


During the invasion of Iraq (March-April 2003), Global Research published, on a daily basis, independent reports from the Middle East, which provided an alternative to the news emanating from the “embedded” journalists reporting from the war theater. Since 2004, Global Research has provided detailed analysis and coverage of US-NATO-Israel preparations to wage a pre-emptive nuclear attack on Iran. Starting in 2011, GR has developed dossiers on the US-NATO led wars on Libya and Syria, the Arab Protest movement, the environmental impacts of the Fukushima disaster, the ongoing crisis in Ukraine, the Saudi-US led war on Yemen, the militarization of the African continent, the development of the police state in North America and Western Europe, the devastating impacts of biotechnology and GMO among other important topics.
We are supposed to go through 20 pages of point by point refutation. Heh, that reminds me how people would just shit out a Breitbart article back on SB and then demand we do their homework for them, then once people spent days and days pointing out the obvious bias and "alternative facts", they'd post another Breitbart article and go on until people got too tired or angry and could get whacked by mods.

A blatantly biaised source doesn't because good just because it sides with your bias.
 

Wakko

Well-known member
And then you look at the sources from his site that I listed, and then you realize what kind of bullcrap his website was. But wait, am I now a Murikan ultranationalist because I don't bash the US at every single moment for any reason?
I know Global Research and I understand your position towards it - though I've never seen you protest much worse propagandist sources - but my actual problem is with your immediate ad hominem. You could have written "OK, I won't take an anti-US claim from GlobalResearch just so, because it's a known anti-US site" or some similar. You're smart when you want to be.

No, he's just demanding you to go though a point by point refutation, along with a battery of citations (explained of course) of your own.
I don't really expect him to do it, I just don't like him (or anybody else for that matter) attacking people like he just did...
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
I know Global Research and I understand your position towards it - though I've never seen you protest much worse propagandist sources - but my actual problem is with your immediate ad hominem. You could have written "OK, I won't take an anti-US claim from GlobalResearch just so, because it's a known anti-US site" or some similar. You're smart when you want to be.
Yeah, I've never protested much worse propagandist sources. Of course. It's not as if I spent years whacking down Alathon and his friends when they were posting Breitbart, or Doc_Holliday and his Zeihan videos. :rolleyes: Sorry, mate, but pointing out the very obvious massive bias of the website and its shitte isn't an ad hominem, it's just smelling bullshit. Now, it's bullshit biaised your way, so you're going to defend it, but it's bullshit nonetheless and you know it.

"Being smart" =/= "Siding with my bias"
 

Wakko

Well-known member
Yeah, I've never protested much worse propagandist sources. Of course. It's not as if I spent years whacking down Alathon and his friends when they were posting Breitbart, or Doc_Holliday and his Zeihan videos. :rolleyes: Sorry, mate, but pointing out the very obvious massive bias of the website and its shitte isn't an ad hominem, it's just smelling bullshit. Now, it's bullshit biaised your way, so you're going to defend it, but it's bullshit nonetheless and you know it.

"Being smart" =/= "Siding with my bias"
Being smart should mean that you will attack the argument, and not the person making it. You know that.
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
Being smart should mean that you will attack the argument, and not the person making it. You know that.
Wrong. That's bullshit and you know it, because it only works when people are arguing in good faith. It's just like with Creationists, Flat Earthers and Negationists: they are full of shit, they know it and they will simply exhaust you by asking retarded questions to which you'll have to spend weeks answering, then go on a variant as soon as you're done. This is why, for a very nice and enjoyable time on SB, sources such as Breitbart were simply forbidden because they were obvious bullshit.

When a source shows all the signs of Fake News and extremely biaised media, you point it as such rather than wasting months of your life countering thirty seconds of nonsense.
 

Josef

Totally Not A Stalinist
Pretty funny you bring up negationism, when historians do sometimes use sources that contain bias and adjust them for that bias.

Do you even have a PHD? Having seen you get your ass kicked in by Leo on SB, I find that a little hard to believe.
 

Wakko

Well-known member
Wrong. That's bullshit and you know it
It's not bullshit. If you don't like the source, you can just state it for everybody else to see that it's not a good source of any anti-US claims. That is the normal thing to do in a debate, not immediately calling people trolls.
I know you, so I know you won't budge right now, but that's what I think.

Do you even have a PHD? Having seen you get your ass kicked in by Leo on SB, I find that a little hard to believe.
I believe him that he has a PhD, I know at least a 100 people who have PhDs and are dumb as stumps in anything outside of their narrow field of focus, and Rufus can be smart. Don't take his attack on you personally, it's much more about him than about you.
Remember: sticks and stones...
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
It's not bullshit. If you don't like the source, you can just state it for everybody else to see that it's not a good source of any anti-US claims. That is the normal thing to do in a debate, not immediately calling people trolls.
I know you, so I know you won't budge right now, but that's what I think.
"It fits my bias, therefore it cannot be bullshit."

Oh, and thanks to a cat for reminding me of the good ol' Media Bias Check:
Notes: Publishes many unsubstantiated conspiracies. While some of Global Research’s articles discuss legitimate humanitarian concerns, its view of science, economics, and geopolitics is conspiracist. (D. Van Zandt 7/20/2016)
 

Wakko

Well-known member
"It fits my bias, therefore it cannot be bullshit."

Oh, and thanks to a cat for reminding me of the good ol' Media Bias Check:
Wow, only moderate conspiracy-level, and mild pseudo-science? That's actually much better than I thought...
"It fits my bias, therefore it cannot be bullshit."
Aaaand that was a strawman. You're on fire today :) I said something completely different. I said "Being smart should mean that you will attack the argument, and not the person making it. You know that." And to that you replied that it's bullshit. And now you've suddenly skipped to the quality of the source, even though I wrote something completely different. Are you distracted or what? Or are you really that petty that you cannot admit that your knee-jerk ad hominem was wrong, and instead are just going back to GlobalResearch not being a good source on anything related to US? Sooo low, Rufus, sooo low ;)
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
Wow, only moderate conspiracy-level, and mild pseudo-science? That's actually much better than I thought...
Nope. It's inside the Conspiracy-Pseudoscience category, which is already extremely bad. It's simply not the worst conspiracy shittery out there, AKA it's not as bad as Time Cube.
Aaaand that was a strawman. You're on fire today :) I said something completely different. I said "Being smart should mean that you will attack the argument, and not the person making it. You know that." And to that you replied that it's bullshit. And now you've suddenly skipped to the quality of the source, even though I wrote something completely different. Are you distracted or what? Or are you really that petty that you cannot admit that your knee-jerk ad hominem was wrong, and instead are just going back to GlobalResearch not being a good source on anything related to US? Sooo low, Rufus, sooo low ;)
Le Yawn. I point out that the source is bullshit. That's enough.

You? You claim that "being smart means attacking the argument", which is bullshit, since it'd mean one would have to go down to countering all the "arguments" of creationists, Flat Earthers and Time Cube.

Oh, wait, I know. Prove to me that you are smart:
I require that you attack the arguments point by point. If you attack the source, you're not smart and are doing ad hominem, according to your claims.

If you refuse to attack that source's arguments and choose to attack that source itself, you clearly are showing yourself as a dumb ad hominem strawmanner.
 

Wakko

Well-known member
You claim that "being smart means attacking the argument", which is bullshit
It's not bullshit, it's the way normal people argue.

I require that you attack the arguments point by point
I have actually expressly written above that I don't expect you to go point by point, but that you can state your refusal of the source instead of attacking people.

If you attack the source, you're not smart and are doing ad hominem, according to your claims.
No, ad hominem is calling people trolls, that's what I wrote. Misrepresenting my claims will not help you.
 

D'waawwu

Well-known member
It's quite amazing that the US seems fine with calling out leftists for casualties invoked by policies and yet can't clear it's own room before doing so. If Lenin is "bad", why isn't Kissinger or Bush?
They are! Dude do you know how controversial both those people are? I know there are people on this very board who consider Bush a war criminal.
 

Rufus Shinra

Well-known member
It's not bullshit, it's the way normal people argue.
Sorry to dismiss your conspiracies.
I have actually expressly written above that I don't expect you to go point by point, but that you can state your refusal of the source instead of attacking people.
And, oh, what was my first post of the thread? Refutal of the source. Oops.
No, ad hominem is calling people trolls, that's what I wrote. Misrepresenting my claims will not help you.
Lol, you don't like that the guy demonstrated clearly that he came from SB and was a troll. ^^

Now, now, I understand that you do agree with this source, but don't try to protect the obvious troll just because he is supporting your bias. :)
 

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