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Poland is pushing the EU into crisis

TheHappyVampire

Well-known member
Poland is pushing the EU into crisis


Poland is changing. In 2015, PiS, a nationalist, right-wing party, won an absolute majority in both houses of the Polish parliament and the presidency. Since then, PiS has been systematically taking over the country's judicial branch by packing the courts with loyalist judges and threatening judicial independence.

This has brought PiS into a confrontation with the European Union, of which Poland is a member; the EU has rules that require member countries have an independent court system. These rules were designed to protect countries from becoming authoritarian. But PiS has simply ignored the EU.

It's a shocking turn for a country that, just a few years ago, was hailed as one of Europe's most promising young democracies. PiS is putting Poland's democracy at risk while also undermining the European Union.

Poland's transition to authoritarianism and disregard for the European Union's (EU) rules puts the EU into an existential crisis. The EU has provided economic aid and a powerful block to counter large powerful nations. If the EU collapses, then the small nations of Europe would be weakened greatly.
 
It isn't just Poland, its also Hungary and Turkey. Not to mention Russia. Europe's been going to shit since Yugoslavia. They had a nice grace period from 1946 to 1947 and 1991 to 1993, however.
 
The EU deserves to collapse as their so called "superstate" is a utter failure bred from corruption. The undermine and deteriorate their own cultures and values through some asinine self flagellation.

The Euro strangles economies like Greece, they defame Poland for daring to celebrate their own culture after decades of the Nazis and Communists trying to crush them, they overturn the will of the people.

Their own Museum is a massive propaganda piece depicting their Continent as essentially Mordor before their "union" formed.

Their committee, the true power is hardly democratic and mostly appointed, deciding the fate of the entire continent on mere whims to raise their bottom line while being out of touch with their own people.

They let millions of migrants from lands that oppose everything their culture stood for who have no respect for the counties they invade, they have no stake or claim to the land but are still considered citizens even while they make their own colonies with their own laws.

They know how the native Europeans will most likely become a minority in the land their ancestors built or inherited because of the severe demographic changes based on their own scales. Yet the gates are unbarred and wide open.

Turkey is not the country it once was, its previous ruler used authoritarianism to prevent the mistakes that would drag down his kindgom like his neighbouring states have done, like his successor is now attempting to do.
 
The EU deserves to collapse as their so called "superstate" is a utter failure bred from corruption. The undermine and deteriorate their own cultures and values through some asinine self flagellation.

The Euro strangles economies like Greece, they defame Poland for daring to celebrate their own culture after decades of the Nazis and Communists trying to crush them, they overturn the will of the people.

Their own Museum is a massive propaganda piece depicting their Continent as essentially Mordor before their "union" formed.

Their committee, the true power is hardly democratic and mostly appointed, deciding the fate of the entire continent on mere whims to raise their bottom line while being out of touch with their own people.

They let millions of migrants from lands that oppose everything their culture stood for who have no respect for the counties they invade, they have no stake or claim to the land but are still considered citizens even while they make their own colonies with their own laws.

They know how the native Europeans will most likely become a minority in the land their ancestors built or inherited because of the severe demographic changes based on their own scales. Yet the gates are unbarred and wide open.

Turkey is not the country it once was, its previous ruler used authoritarianism to prevent the mistakes that would drag down his kindgom like his neighbouring states have done, like his successor is now attempting to do.
And its rather recent actually, at least in its current form. NATO has been around far longer, which was largely utilized as a mechanism for maintaining an American military-industrial machine in the continent's west. EU is (to me at least) merely an administrative/political experiment by the machinery of the old Atlantic power structures established by the US-Pentagon-Bilderberg old guard that arose from post-Nazi Europe.
 
If the EU wants to continue existing, then it needs to put its foot down and federalize. However, a strong European identity needs to rise. Germans should see themselves as Europeans first, Germans second. LIke how Californians see themselves as Americans first, Californians second.

They need to centralize government, policy, and interest. If they don't, messes like this will continue to happen.
 
They let millions of migrants from lands that oppose everything their culture stood for who have no respect for the counties they invade, they have no stake or claim to the land but are still considered citizens even while they make their own colonies with their own laws.

They know how the native Europeans will most likely become a minority in the land their ancestors built or inherited because of the severe demographic changes based on their own scales. Yet the gates are unbarred and wide open.

Really letting your freak flag fly huh
 
Here's a little dirty secret when it comes to federal republics: you have to have authoritarian features one way or another. Problem is that Europe is full of so many old grudges that it's impossible to really federalize. The US had it bad with only decades of grievances, with Europe's centuries of grievances... yeah.

Not to mention that any federalized EU would have Germany and France dictating any and all financial terms no matter what you do as they have the strongest economies in Europe and everyone in Europe has grievances between the two stretching on and off for centuries.
 
If the EU wants to continue existing, then it needs to put its foot down and federalize. However, a strong European identity needs to rise. Germans should see themselves as Europeans first, Germans second. LIke how Californians see themselves as Americans first, Californians second.

They need to centralize government, policy, and interest. If they don't, messes like this will continue to happen.

You seriously think a bit of Beethoven is going to convince Greece that they should have the screws tightened more? A chain is only as strong as its weakest link.

And forget Poland, ITALY is the real crisis (Actual Fascists are in charge in Italy).
 
You seriously think a bit of Beethoven is going to convince Greece that they should have the screws tightened more?

And forget Poland, ITALY is the real crisis (Actual Fascists are in charge in Italy).
Yep. Despite their small military, they are still a G7 State...
 
Yep. Despite their small military, they are still a G7 State...

And the other thing about Italy is that they are a ticking timebomb in terms of economy (Banking system has 17% Non Performing Loans, or loans that received no partial payment in the last three months, not to mention the two TRILLION debt pile that cannot be bailed out). Even in the French Election, the EU's real nightmare was an Italian crisis, and when it was going to hit.
 
The EU deserves to collapse as their so called "superstate" is a utter failure bred from corruption. The undermine and deteriorate their own cultures and values through some asinine self flagellation.

The Euro strangles economies like Greece, they defame Poland for daring to celebrate their own culture after decades of the Nazis and Communists trying to crush them, they overturn the will of the people.

Their own Museum is a massive propaganda piece depicting their Continent as essentially Mordor before their "union" formed.

Their committee, the true power is hardly democratic and mostly appointed, deciding the fate of the entire continent on mere whims to raise their bottom line while being out of touch with their own people.

They let millions of migrants from lands that oppose everything their culture stood for who have no respect for the counties they invade, they have no stake or claim to the land but are still considered citizens even while they make their own colonies with their own laws.

They know how the native Europeans will most likely become a minority in the land their ancestors built or inherited because of the severe demographic changes based on their own scales. Yet the gates are unbarred and wide open.

Turkey is not the country it once was, its previous ruler used authoritarianism to prevent the mistakes that would drag down his kindgom like his neighbouring states have done, like his successor is now attempting to do.
You know I was curious to see what you decided to shit out of your mouth today and unblocked you for a second. Now I see that was a mistake.
 
Poland's transition to authoritarianism and disregard for the European Union's (EU) rules puts the EU into an existential crisis. The EU has provided economic aid and a powerful block to counter large powerful nations. If the EU collapses, then the small nations of Europe would be weakened greatly.
You know what's the saddest part of this all? EU is bringing itself into an existential crisis over Poland. Poles are not stupid, neither are they backwards or extremist. The post-2008 crisis economic problems and the shock from the immigration issues has helped PiS to get into its current position of strength, but they can't help but fuck up now they have power. Given a couple of years, PiS will be voted out of power and Poland will return back to normal. The same goes for Hungary and Czech Republic. But Brussels is behaving like a total d**k and instead of trying to talk and negotiate a compromise to our common problems, it immediately goes into overdrive with declarations and threats of sanctions and basically authoritarianism - which is oh so ironic. EU was built on common economic goals and a huge pile of compromise. The current Brussels establishment has somehow forgotten that, and for them it's either you're with us or you're evil.
 
Austria, Italy, Hungary and the Czech Republic all had recent elections where CHUDs won massively. In Poland, the main opposition is austerity now, austerity tomorrow, austerity forever!, meaning it is unlikely to regain power. Macron's approval rating is heading towards Rock Bottom and fast, while the GroKo in Germany could very well not have a majority the next election.

The EU is running straight into a series of brewing crises, and ultimately a chain is only as strong as its weakest link and there are plenty of weak links in the EU.
 
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You know what's the saddest part of this all? EU is bringing itself into an existential crisis over Poland. Poles are not stupid, neither are they backwards or extremist. The post-2008 crisis economic problems and the shock from the immigration issues has helped PiS to get into its current position of strength, but they can't help but fuck up now they have power. Given a couple of years, PiS will be voted out of power and Poland will return back to normal. The same goes for Hungary and Czech Republic. But Brussels is behaving like a total d**k and instead of trying to talk and negotiate a compromise to our common problems, it immediately goes into overdrive with declarations and threats of sanctions and basically authoritarianism - which is oh so ironic. EU was built on common economic goals and a huge pile of compromise. The current Brussels establishment has somehow forgotten that, and for them it's either you're with us or you're evil.
So certain European politicians got too fearful and impatient on the situation going on in Poland and screwed up?
 
So certain European politicians got too fearful and impatient on the situation going on in Poland and screwed up?
Eh, I don't think Wakko isn't looking at the complete picture here. Poland has always feared Russia far more than any other power throughout it's history. Even with Prussia's geopolitical shenanigans, Poles would rather have Germans backing them than Russians... primarily because Russia tried to thoroughly eradicate Poland from existence via a system of brutal oppression and literal cultural genocide (with a side order of 'anyone that doesn't go with it gets killed'). In order for Poland to continue to exist, it'll need to be a strong state... and since it knows a lot of Russia's tricks, and for the most part it appears that leaders across Europe are generally ignoring the fact that Russia is coming for them one way or another...
 
So certain European politicians got too fearful and impatient on the situation going on in Poland and screwed up?
I don't think it's about fear, I think it's more just arrogance - instead of talking to the Poles and negotiating with them, wanting to come to a compromise, the reaction is basically "if you're not with us, you're against us." Not to say that Kaczynski is sane, certainly I see more fault at the Polish side (I remember what was basically the first action of Kaczynski's government - an armed takeover of a joint intelligence centre we had created with them), but that doesn't mean that Brussel isn't overly heavyhanded too. I think that the crisis could have been averted with some more diplomacy.

Poland has always feared Russia far more than any other power throughout it's history.
If that were the case, Poland should do everything to secure its place in the EU, rather than risking the wrath of Germany and France. The EU/Poland spat doesn't have anything to do with Russia.

for the most part it appears that leaders across Europe are generally ignoring the fact that Russia is coming for them one way or another...
Whaaat? How do you figure that? I think that this has been discussed at least a 1,000 times, also on SB, and always with the result that apart from kicking the Baltics, Russia just doesn't have the economic power to go after Europe. They may be able to get their tanks quite far in, but that action and the aftermath would exhaust them economically much more than the Yeltsin era - and much faster, too. Russia is much better off conquering our energy market, and everybody here knows it.
 
If that were the case, Poland should do everything to secure its place in the EU, rather than risking the wrath of Germany and France. The EU/Poland spat doesn't have anything to do with Russia.
Not in the case for an irrational, historical, and realistic paranoia. That has a whole different mental-picture than you would think.
Whaaat? How do you figure that? I think that this has been discussed at least a 1,000 times, also on SB, and always with the result that apart from kicking the Baltics, Russia just doesn't have the economic power to go after Europe. They may be able to get their tanks quite far in, but that action and the aftermath would exhaust them economically much more than the Yeltsin era - and much faster, too. Russia is much better off conquering our energy market, and everybody here knows it.
Never underestimate a nostalgic enemy leadership who is willing to do everything to get what they want. Right now they're simply using pasties to tear apart the EU, then once the EU states are scattered and vulnerable, go in for the kill. Either by ensuring that Europe is controlled by Russia's energy reserves, by force (Ukraine is basically an invasion-in-progress by Russia with the explicit end-goal to take all of Ukraine), or by installing puppets.
 
Never underestimate a nostalgic enemy leadership who is willing to do everything to get what they want. Right now they're simply using pasties to tear apart the EU, then once the EU states are scattered and vulnerable, go in for the kill. Either by ensuring that Europe is controlled by Russia's energy reserves, by force (Ukraine is basically an invasion-in-progress by Russia with the explicit end-goal to take all of Ukraine), or by installing puppets.
OK, I sit here in Central Europe, right next to Ukraine, and see how I'm not at least a bit worried? What I'm worried about is Ukraine f***ing up like in 2009 and cutting off our gas before NS2 + the second part of Turkish Stream get built. I also worry about the latest Syria fuckup (or the one after that) going too far and provoking an armed conflict between Russia and some NATO country, which will inevitably lead to a market panic, crash and another depression. These are the things I worry about, sitting here in Central Europe. While Russia has the military ability to conquer Ukraine, it is my firm view that it has no intention of doing it, no economic capacity to keep it, and certainly not enough crazy to start a war with the EU. Modern Russia is all about capitalism and making money, and going to war is very bad for business.
 
Here's a little dirty secret when it comes to federal republics: you have to have authoritarian features one way or another. Problem is that Europe is full of so many old grudges that it's impossible to really federalize. The US had it bad with only decades of grievances, with Europe's centuries of grievances... yeah.

The thing is, the US was only really able to federalize after they'd already tried confederalism and it blew up in their faces. I suspect that the EU has to go through the same sort of crisis-hinged desperation to federalize, and the various economic woes they've been suffering won't be enough on their own to force the issue.
 
The thing is, the US was only really able to federalize after they'd already tried confederalism and it blew up in their faces. I suspect that the EU has to go through the same sort of crisis-hinged desperation to federalize, and the various economic woes they've been suffering won't be enough on their own to force the issue.

Slavery, and whether or not a Black Person was three fifths human, was the primary fault line of the original US constitution that threatened to break the confederation apart. The EU's main fault lines are less polarising, but there are lot more of them.
 
Slavery, and whether or not a Black Person was three fifths human, was the primary fault line of the original US constitution that threatened to break the confederation apart. The EU's main fault lines are less polarising, but there are lot more of them.
I don't disagree on the EU side of things, but I was more referring to when the US operated under the Articles of Confederation.
 
Frankly? Arts 11 and 13 are bigger issues in all this.

Like, most people didn't care about the EU before... but when it starts affecting their social media? Then they'll care. They'll care a lot.
 
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