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Palpatiner vs. Sauron
- Thread starter Senmut
- Start date
Just what we saw on screen.
Most likely. Betrail is Palpy's favorite pastime.
Scottty
Well-known member
Nope.
The only way Palpatine would have a chance against Sauron would be if he gets and learns to control the Ring.
Sauron doesn't do "Rule of Two" - only Rule of One.
The OP gave us Palpatine and Sauron as we see them on screen. But that last fan movie(Sequel Trilogy III) is considered canon. Palpy can fire sky beam lightning storms. That puts him close to Dark Empire feats. And in a fight of Palpatine versus wraiths, I would give it to Palpy. I think Palpy can win this.
Scottty
Well-known member
We only see him doing that after he'd just sucked a whole load of energy from Rey and Kylo.
Define "win"?
He was half-past dead at the time.
In the canon, we now have "The Senate" took part in 3 instances of personal combat. Windu Maul and Joda.
Sauron in visual media only fought at the beginning of FotR.
Cut down Sauron at the beginning of the Fellowship of the Ring and throw the one ring in the volcano.
Yes, The OP gave us the Return of the King Sauron who did not have the body. But I still think this would be a win for Palpatine. At this point, he doesn't have to lift a finger.
But that is sort of cheap way to win.
Scottty
Well-known member
Dude, seriously?
Sheev Palpatine, of all people, is not going to be throwing the One Ring into the fires of Mount Doom. It doesn't matter how amped you think he is with force-lightning, because that's irrelevant here. If Palpatine gets his hands on the Ash Nazg, he's immediately going to put it on his finger, clench that hand into a first, and try to claim and wield that power for himself.
As Elrond would dryly point out... "only human".
And then Sauron shows up and reclaims the Ring. Like taking candy from a baby.
Yes, seriously.
If you seriously think Palpatine would have less resistance to the One Ring influence than a fuzzy foot hobbit, I don't know what to tell you.
Palpatine is a man that controlled his dark side degradation ambition and hatred sitting in the same room with the people he despised for decades and has clung to life after death for almost 40 years.
Saying the Senate is "only human" is like saying Hercules or Jesus was only human.
Tolkiens writing puts the importance of willpower throughout his works.
As for Palpatine desiring the ring's power...
Palpatine always craved power, but unlike the Sith of Old(well legends) he have never pursued empowerment by external sources. He never tried to make empowering artifacts nor did he pursue existing artifacts. He is well aware of the detrimental effects such things bring.
So it would not be in his modus operandi to defeat an opponent and try to take whatever empowering amulet his enemy used to harness its power. Palpatine like all rule of two Siths are self-made people.
He is more likely to try to destroy the Horcrux to get rid of his enemy permanently.
He only needs to carry the ring for an hour at best to drop it in the fire. And no one is forcing him to do it himself. He can have a patsy to carry the ring and if this hired help is corrupted The Senate can always kick him together with the ring in the lava. No skin of his back.
So yes Palpatine is a power-hungry madman, but he is a power-hungry madman with a self-imposed moral code. If he was an athlete he would not take steroids.
If you seriously think Palpatine would have less resistance to the One Ring influence than a fuzzy foot hobbit, I don't know what to tell you.
Palpatine is a man that controlled his dark side degradation ambition and hatred sitting in the same room with the people he despised for decades and has clung to life after death for almost 40 years.
Saying the Senate is "only human" is like saying Hercules or Jesus was only human.
Tolkiens writing puts the importance of willpower throughout his works.
As for Palpatine desiring the ring's power...
Palpatine always craved power, but unlike the Sith of Old(well legends) he have never pursued empowerment by external sources. He never tried to make empowering artifacts nor did he pursue existing artifacts. He is well aware of the detrimental effects such things bring.
So it would not be in his modus operandi to defeat an opponent and try to take whatever empowering amulet his enemy used to harness its power. Palpatine like all rule of two Siths are self-made people.
He is more likely to try to destroy the Horcrux to get rid of his enemy permanently.
He only needs to carry the ring for an hour at best to drop it in the fire. And no one is forcing him to do it himself. He can have a patsy to carry the ring and if this hired help is corrupted The Senate can always kick him together with the ring in the lava. No skin of his back.
So yes Palpatine is a power-hungry madman, but he is a power-hungry madman with a self-imposed moral code. If he was an athlete he would not take steroids.
Scottty
Well-known member
Well, I do know what to tell you.
That "fuzzy foot hobbit" is harder for the Ring to subvert, because with such a being it has far less to work with. Hobbits simply are not power-hungry. And being innocents, they have a level of Divine protection that a wicked man like Palpatine does not.
From the Ring's viewpoint, being carried around by a Hobbit beats just lying on the bottom of the river, but only because it helps towards its goal of getting back to its master.
I must have missed the bit in the movies where it was stated that Palpatine was either a demigod or a Divine incarnation.
Willpower is only one aspect it. Rely on stength of will alone, and you might find that Sauron knows Judo, so to speak.
Saruman was a being a far greater willpower and overall personal might than Denethor, but Saruman was subverted by Sauron and Denethor was not.
Why? Because the
Sauron could only drive Denethor to despair, but not change his loyalities.
Dude, where are you getting this? Are we talking about the same person?
The guy who was trying to dominate the whole galaxy using a honking huge battlestation, massive fleets of warships, etc etc? Those look like external devices of power to me.
(IMHO, it was foolish of Palpy to allow the Death Star to be under the command of anyone but himself. Tarkin could have killed him with it and taken over the Empire himself. But that's a whole 'nother debate)
Better plan yet - don't allow any living being to touch the Ring. If you want it carried to the Fire, get C3P0 to do it.
But no, you don't need to be touching the Ring for it to be able to mess with your mind. Boromir never got to hold it.
Sure.... a moral code that will make him pass up literal immortality.
Hobbits are hardly innocent. They were a stand-in for close-minded small townsfolk. Spiteful, knoving, boastful. Other than Frodo, Sam and Bilbo there is hardly a sympathetic character in the lot.
Well, he still has better feats than both of them together.
"Don't be so quick to marvel at this technological terror, the ability to destroy a planet is insignificant next to the Power of the Force"
Basically there is a world of difference in setting between having an army and using magic items. Palpatine never used Dark Side items, he collected them to be stored in a vault for safe keeping.
Palpatine in his personal exploits never used crutches, and that is what the ring is; a crutch. Everything the rings offers there is a Darkside doohickey that can do the same. In the (sadly demised) Star Wars Extended Universe the One Ring would be just one more powerful artifact amoung many .
Also no he couldn't. Palpatine is just a thought away from killing Tarkin. Tarkin would choke on the "co" syllable in Commence primary ignition.
Same thing.Better plan yet - don't allow any living being to touch the Ring. If you want it carried to the Fire, get C3P0 to do it.
But no, you don't need to be touching the Ring for it to be able to mess with your mind. Boromir never got to hold it.
There are a plethora of Darkside ways to achieve immortality. Palpatine has not pursued them but devised his own.
In Tolkien Verse the One Ring is the most powerful thing in existence. In Star Wars, it is one among many.
<Reaper>666
Well-known member
Scotty,
Saruman's logic was taking an obvious sides in the coming conflict and had nothing to do with willpower nor good nor evil. It was simple political consideration, which, given the setting was a right thing to do actually.
Saruman's logic was taking an obvious sides in the coming conflict and had nothing to do with willpower nor good nor evil. It was simple political consideration, which, given the setting was a right thing to do actually.
Scottty
Well-known member
Not sure where you are getting that. I never said they were perfect.
Now you are just being silly.
That was Darth Vader, not Palpatine.
Look dude, we talking the movie canon here. If you start pick-and-choosing from all the books and comics, you can come up with a Palpatine who could have just levitated himself out of the shaft that Vader threw him down, or teleported to another planet, or what the hell ever.
And we don't see Palpy's attempt at immortality working out too well for him.
Does that apply to Sauron as well?
Scottty
Well-known member
Well the primary canon for LoTR is the books. One author makes it simple.
Movie alone? It was you who started using book material.
Movie alone it is not even a contest. The ring will not have 6 hours of screen time to corrupt Palpatine. Nor would it have 2 hours as it sort of but not all the way corrupted Boromir. This thing would be over before the title card shows up.
Palpatine shows up cuts Saroman down. Pick up a stick to carry the ring on the end of itand throw it in the lava.
Sauron in the movies had a mild TK attack the one time he had a body. Movie alone Palpatine TK was: throwing minivan sized levitation pods in the senate. His high level feat. Precise TK control casually unlocking Luke's cuffs.
He was an excellent swordsman.
As for political acumen, that I think translates to being sneeky.
Sauron offers power to people that crave it, sometimes getting results sometimes not. Garadiel outright refused the offer as well as Aragorn.
Palpatine corrupted two powerful Jedi. Sat in the room with the Jedi greatest and they were none the wiser of his true nature. Got himself elected over and over again.
Those two are not even in the same league.
It would be Sauron that would be working for Palpatine not the other way around.
Also, I see you have not read much of the EU. Palpatine never displayed teleportation nor personal levitation. The first one was An'ya Kuro(the gray woman) the second one was Count Dooku.
As for immortality, worked well enough. Palpatine survived his own assassination then the place he got assassinated in, exploded got thrown around at interstelar distance and still the dude had a loyal following that build him a navy.
So in that regard the two are about equal.
Scottty
Well-known member
Movies for StarWars, Books for LoTR. For the same consistent reason: using each universe's primary source material.
Star Wars' Expanded Universe doesn't count, for the same reason Iron Crown Games' stuff doesn't.
And the rest of your post doesn't merit a response. So I'm just going to tell you that trying to fight Sauron by using the "Dark Side of the Force" would be almost exactly like a RPG cleric rebelling against his god, and expecting that god to still be granting him spells.
Try to throw force-lighting at Sauron, and you might just find that the power the Shadow gives, it can also take away.