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Indonesian politics thread. Capital City edition.

Jakarta

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Hello there, this is the Indonesian politics thread, from the guy who has been following Indonesian politics for a while, and have seen how the national discourse is being shaped because he lived in the country for the majority of his life.

Anyway, off with the first article. Detailing about Jokowi's vice president for the 2019 elections.
Mahfud, Airlangga, TGB on VP candidates list, Jokowi says
2018_06_12_47532_1528788261._large.jpg

President Joko "Jokowi" Widodo revealed on Monday that three notable figures whose names have been circulating as potential vice-presidential candidates are indeed on his list of potential running mates for the 2019 presidential election.

The three figures are former Constitutional Court chief justice Mahfud MD, Golkar chairman Airlangga Hartarto and Muhammad Zainul Majdi, widely known as Tuan Guru Bajang (TGB), a two-time West Nusa Tenggara governor.

In an interview on Monday, journalists asked the President three separate questions, each about whether Mahfud, Airlangga and TGB, respectively, were considered as vice-presidential candidates.

Source: http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/...ga-tgb-on-vp-candidates-list-jokowi-says.html

Anyone is welcome to participate in this thread BTW. Just don't post blindingly ignorant posts and you'll be fine.

Anyway, @Salbazier, From TGB and Mahfud MD (I think Hartarto's out just because he's unknown from the general public, heck, my memory's still a bit fuzzy myself on what the guy did). Who do you think would like to be Jokowi's VP? Honestly, for me? I'm pretty split. TGB is good for Islamic credentials, while Mahfud MD is obviously an experienced judge.
 
From somebody who isn't familiar with Indonesian politics, can you give me an overview?
 
From somebody who isn't familiar with Indonesian politics, can you give me an overview?

We are a Presidential Democracy, we have a (kinda) bicameral parliament, the DPR, or People's Representative Council, AKA the lower house, and the DPD, or the Region's Representative Council, AKA the 'upper' house.

I say 'upper' because in practice, we only have a lower house with no upper house.
The principal legislative body in Indonesia is the House of Representatives (Dewan Perwakilan Rakyat- DPR) which has existed in various forms since the country's independence in the 1940s. But recent constitutional reforms led to the establishment of a second chamber in 2004, the House of Regional Representatives (Dewan Perwakilan Daerah – DPD), which is intended to be a channel for input into the political process on issues related to the country's regions. The House of Representatives (DPR) has the power to draft and pass legislation and to oversee executive government, while the House of Regional Representatives (DPD) has only advisory powers related to legislation on regional matters and the oversight of executive government. The DPD can draft bills for the consideration of the DPR, but it has no independent legislative authority. The DPD is not an "upper" house in that it has no power to review legislation passed by the DPR. Thus although Indonesia has two parliamentary chambers, it cannot be considered to have a bicameral parliament as that term is conventionally understood.

Source: https://siteresources.worldbank.org/PSGLP/Resources/ParliamentaryIndicatorsIndonesia.pdf

We elect our President by popular vote, no electoral college shenanigans, and our parliament by Proportional Representation. Hence why this is our current makeup of the DPR.
People%27s_Representative_Council_2014%E2%80%932019.svg

(Not counting coalitions)

Our parliament differs from the house of other western nations because we have two major ways of passing laws. Consensus, and voting.

Consensus is exactly what it says, if all representatives from each major party in the parliament convene in a meeting, trade horses, and reach an agreement, no voting mechanism is needed if there is a consensus between parliamentary party heads, the law passes.

If there is no consensus by all the representative heads in that meeting, then the voting procedure would begin. And majority, not plurality, rules.

Current political current in Indonesia strongly favours the incumbent, Joko Widodo, it's widely expected that he's going to face Prabowo Subianto in the 2019 elections (again), and widely expected that he's going to win harder because Jokowi is a pretty competent administrator, even with a supposed intolerance wave currently posing problems for the country. TGB is one way Jokowi's going to deal with the diehard islamists. Mahfud MD if he's going for the cosmopolitan votes of Jakarta, Surabaya, Bandung, Medan, etc etc etc.
 
Any religious weirdos you gotta watch out for in Indonesian politics?
PKS started out as a really islamist party, but has slightly moved away from it as they do rather poorly in elections
 
PKS started out as a really islamist party, but has slightly moved away from it as they do rather poorly in elections

PKS is not the ONLY Islamist party though, there's also PKB, PPP, and PBB. All of them have strong Islamic credentials in the current Indonesian political climate.

But none of them ever won even plurality in the parliament, and only one, PKB, ever won the national presidential elections. In which we got a Blind, Crippled, Old man as our President.

A beloved blind, crippled, old man. Because the guy's a really good moderate Islamic cleric. During a time right after Soeharto lost power.
 
Who is TGB, Jokowi's strongest ally against sectarianism?
2017_11_23_36371_1511425615._large.jpg

West Nusa Tenggara (NTB) Governor Muhammad Zainul Majdi, affectionately known as Tuan Guru Bajang (TGB), may or may not be chosen as President Joko "Jokowi" Widodo's running mate for the upcoming presidential race.

But the 46-year-old politician looks set to take center stage in national politics after declaring his support for Jokowi's reelection bid, a shock decision that not only angered his colleagues in the Democratic Party, which has yet to declare support for any presidential contender, but also Islamists who had tapped him as one of Jokowi's strongest challengers.

TGB, who was elected governor in 2008, is set to finish his second and final term in September 2018. His recent decision to officially endorse Jokowi may reflect his readiness to leave local politics and aim for a career in national politics.

Seeing his credentials, the future looks bright for TGB.

Here's why:

Influential Muslim leader

TGB, like Jokowi, is widely regarded as a successful regional leader, having managed to bring more tourists and investors to NTB. But he has something that Jokowi lacks: strong credentials as a Muslim leader.

TGB holds a degree in Islamic theology and Qur'anic exegesis from the prestigious Al-Azhar University in Cairo, the very same school from which several top Islamic thinkers in the country have graduated, including scholar Quraish Shihab and Nahdlatul Ulama (NU) cleric Mustofa "Gus Mus" Bisri.

Tuan Guru Haji is an Islamic title given to a master in religious teaching while Bajang means "young" in Sasak, the local language of NTB, where TGB was born and raised.

He is also the head of Nahdlatul Wathan, an Islamic group in NTB, and currently leads Al-Azhar Alumni International Organization (OIAA), the Indonesian chapter of the World Organization for Al-Azhar graduates.

As a scholar, TGB often preaches in other Indonesian provinces, building a national rapport. He has continuously promoted the values of moderate Islam, or Wasathiyyatul Islam, which he himself refers to as a guidance or ideology adopted by Al-Azhar graduates in mainstreaming Islamic moderation within Indonesia's pluralist society.

As a former supporter of Gerindra Party chief Prabowo Subianto, TGB had gained traction among Islamists critical of Jokowi. His defection has triggered a backlash, with some of his supporters accusing him of betraying the Muslim community.

The scholar took to his official Instagram account to defend his decision.

"Do you dare to say that you are haq [truthful] while your political opponents are bathil [false], similar to the infidel Quraysh? Who dares say so? I don't dare," TGB told his audience during a sermon in a video uploaded on July 6.

The way to cope with political differences was to learn and fulfill each other in the concept of fastabiqul khairat or "race each other in all things that are good," he said.

"Please stop quoting the verses that speak of war in the Quran during political contests. We are not at war, we are [united] as one nation and [we must] complement each other in kindness."

Source: http://www.thejakartapost.com/news/...s-strongest-ally-against-sectarianism---.html

I initially thought Cak Imin would be most likely as Jokowi's VP, due to his strong Islamic credentials and the fact that he generally espouses tolerance. But TGB is someone I also wouldn't mind being Jokowi's VP.

Perhaps, even getting a chance at the high office himself sometime in 2024...

Article is made by the Jakarta Post, an Indonesian Newspaper, Indonesia does not have copyright restrictions like the US or Western countries, so I should have leeway quoting more than three paragraphs here.
 
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Anyway, @Salbazier, From TGB and Mahfud MD (I think Hartarto's out just because he's unknown from the general public, heck, my memory's still a bit fuzzy myself on what the guy did). Who do you think would like to be Jokowi's VP?
As I said once I don't really pay attention to politics so atm i have no idea LOL. Give me some time and let see what I can research.

A beloved blind, crippled, old man. Because the guy's a really good moderate Islamic cleric. During a time right after Soeharto lost power.
That was pure political compromise. I forgot the exact details of why and how, but I remember one part of it, because a lot people don't want Megawati to be president. And so Gus Dur, with Megawati getting VP for consolation for her supporters.

And that was a shame all over. See, I don't think Gus Dur is a bad person per se. He was a good cleric, moderate and intellegent, but old age had set on him at that time and it had took it toll on both body and mind. Maybe it would have been different if Gus Dur was in his prime instead*, but as it was, it's a circus of presidency. And Megawati getting to predient after the impeachment too, because bleh. Now, I don't have that 'women cannot be leaders' many traditional Muslims had, but I do adhere 'stupid women and men should not be leader' and Megawati ... for all his flaws, none cannot say Soekarno isn't a leader material. His daughter wasn't

*or maybe not. One of the problem among many was his followers fanaticism. Like strong antagonism agains those critize or make jokes of Gus Dur. Despite the man being generally cool with it.

That presidential term could have been better. Well, in fairness I don't remember that much for a proper analysis. But as kid partially following the news the various hullaballo was memorable
Are the Indonesian military still salami slicing at academia like they did last year?
Uh what?
 
So the Indonesian military took over student orientation programmes last year, and considering how " in the interests of national security..." typically leads to mission creep unless told to fuck off from the get go..
 
So the Indonesian military took over student orientation programmes last year
Hey, see what the OP put in the opening post
Anyone is welcome to participate in this thread BTW. Just don't post blindingly ignorant posts and you'll be fine.


No, TNI (Tentara Nasional Indonesia = Indonesian Natioanal Army) didn't 'took over student orientation programmes'. There are several mistakes with this statement. For one it isn't 'taking over'. The notion was too for TNI to cooperate with univs in providing manpower/material/support/whatever for the orientation. The control are still firmly in univs hand. For another, it talks as if this universally happened with Indonesian academia as a whole. Student orientation (and I'm pretty sure this is true in the other countries as well) are highly individualistic across even different departments of a university, nevermind across different universities. There are Univ who's already involving TNI, even before 2015, and then there are ones who don't or won't be.

And of course calliing TNI being involved in student orientation as 'salami slicing academia' is dumb. Opinions are free, you if you think it will lead to 'mission creep' or whatever you can do so, but if you are going to insinuating that your imagination has happened you better have proof for it.
 
That was pure political compromise. I forgot the exact details of why and how, but I remember one part of it, because a lot people don't want Megawati to be president. And so Gus Dur, with Megawati getting VP for consolation for her supporters.

And that was a shame all over. See, I don't think Gus Dur is a bad person per se. He was a good cleric, moderate and intellegent, but old age had set on him at that time and it had took it toll on both body and mind. Maybe it would have been different if Gus Dur was in his prime instead*, but as it was, it's a circus of presidency. And Megawati getting to predient after the impeachment too, because bleh. Now, I don't have that 'women cannot be leaders' many traditional Muslims had, but I do adhere 'stupid women and men should not be leader' and Megawati ... for all his flaws, none cannot say Soekarno isn't a leader material. His daughter wasn't

Man, if the news stories are to be believed back then. Everything's a circus.

I think what Gus Dur did cannot be measured in real terms, but what he did is the one I highlighted in your post.

In a Democracy that's what, barely a couple years old at that point? the need to set the national norms was ridiculously important. Habibie and Gus Dur did that. And I respect them for their actions.

Willing to step down when your term's up and setting the national discourse towards a more moderate strain of Islam is, in my opinion at least, worth it.

Besides, saying FPI are assholes gets an immediate thumbs up from me :D
 
Willing to step down when your term's up and setting the national discourse towards a more moderate strain of Islam is, in my opinion at least, worth it.
'willing to step down'? He was impeached. Adn he don't have the grace to immediately accept the impeachment either. For a while he continue to insist that he was the president and prior to the impeachment he make a lot of riculous threat sucha s claiming that several province will break from Indonesia if he was impeached or trying ot use TNI

Here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abdurrahman_Wahid#2001_and_removal_from_power

He was an intelligent person, when he was younger. As senile old man, he's amy still worthwhile as a cleric, but certainly not as president.

Gus Dur was incomparable to Habibie, the later whom still very well in intelligent and healthy phase of life. And unlike Gus Dur, his presidency run well. His decision to let go of Timor Timur was seen by many as fiasco, but in my eyes that was correct decision. Again, unlike Gus Dur he accept the impeachment and make no attempt to cling to power after or before.

...and the before part was perhaps kind of regreattable. Habibie sole problem was the fact that he has no political clout or network. His office was one of sheer coincidence. His was offered post as VP as a credit for his achievemetns. Then reformation happened, Soeharto lengser, and Habibie got the presidency. Man, thinking about it Habibie is like the Jack Ryan of Indonesia. Unlike Ryan though he didn't consolidate power and keeping the office for long. If Habibe did ... but if wishes were horse. If Habibie was grasping for power like that then he would not be Habibie.
 
'willing to step down'? He was impeached.

I was talking specifically about Habibie, and that 9 month stuff that he said when he was in office.

Sorry for not clarifying.
 
I was talking specifically about Habibie, and that 9 month stuff that he said when he was in office.

Sorry for not clarifying.
Ah okay.

Also scrathed out one part of my statements above. I mixed up his attempt to declare State of emergeny with TNI's invovelvement (and the side TNI was taking, oops).

Regarding moderate Islam, Gus Dur involvement in that AFAIK has been going since before presidency. I also don't think it require presidency to do.

Hmm, I guess you being Chinese descent would make Gus Dur positiveness more felt? I do recall that it was in Gus Dur's term that a number of restriction against Chinese Indonesians and chinese culture was lifted. This is less moderate Islamism and more about racism issue in general though.
 
Regarding moderate Islam, Gus Dur involvement in that AFAIK has been going since before presidency. I also don't think it require presidency to do.

Hmm, I guess you being Chinese descent would make Gus Dur positiveness more felt? I do recall that it was in Gus Dur's term that a number of restriction against Chinese Indonesians and chinese culture was lifted. This is less moderate Islamism and more about racism issue in general though.

A Presidency's a megaphone. Automatically making your opinions more relevant, your actions magnified, and everything else you do having much more oomph.

The fact that he is a norm setter, regardless of the circumstances that got him into the office. Makes me someone who thinks both Gus Dur and Habibie are very important people in modern Indonesian politics. It's because they live in the crossroads, and the nation was in flux far, far more than the usual.

What Gus Dur did for the Chinese is very, very good, and would put him on par with Habibie in my book (because I think treating ethnic minorities is pretty important). But also the fact that he gave us an effective shield against the racism and Islamic fundamentalism by being a cleric himself is pretty good. Because the nativist dumbfucks have a tendency to mesh both 'kepribumian' and 'islami' into one narrative about an Indonesia only for these people, and not the rest.

So... yeah, why I think Gus Dur is very important.
 
A Presidency's a megaphone. Automatically making your opinions more relevant, your actions magnified, and everything else you do having much more oomph.
Including your stupid. Everything comes with drawback.
 
Obviously. Trump's evidence of that.
Yeah, despite just spending few posts shit talking Gus Dur I still won't insult him by comparing him to Trump. Gus Dur at least got excuse of old age for hsi oddities, and was brilliant in his prime. And Indonesians got excuse that his election was by the parliament (to foreigners: This is before Indonesia implement direct presidential election) Trump is dipshit forever with no excuse that directly chosen by half of USA.

What I meant that being presidency is a not always net positives. Being in place of power meant you are more able to do harm, such that is possible you are going to create more harm than good in the net compared to if you are not.

'Everything has positives' is as true as 'everything has drawback'. I won't deny some positives aspect of Gus Dur (the extent and the which is different matter) nor that of the person as whole. But I still think the whole episode is a shame. Admitedly it is true that everything is a shame/circus back then. The politics of Indonesia was (is) sordid mess. The way things are back then Gus Dur presidency was ... I'm not sure if its avoidable, or avoidable in good way. The only major contendend (that I can remember) is Megawati* and she is meh as well. Thus we are left with having to deal with the mess we are got handed and has to treasure the few positives they left Acknowledging the positive is not the same with acknowledging their presidencies as good/desireable thing though.

*Oh I just checked/remember. The other possible contenter that time is Habibie. He did try to retain presidency but failed (instead of never trying, as it may impressed by my earlier (mistaken) wording). He withdraw nomination after his accoutablity speech was rejected though.
 
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'Everything has positives' is as true as 'everything has drawback'. I won't deny some positives aspect of Gus Dur (the extent and the which is different matter) nor that of the person as whole. But I still think the whole episode is a shame. Admitedly it is true that everything is a shame/circus back then. The politics of Indonesia was (is) sordid mess. The way things are back then Gus Dur presidency was ... I'm not sure if its avoidable, or avoidable in good way. The only major contendend (that I can remember) is Megawati and she is meh as well. Thus we are left with having to deal with the mess we are got handed and has to treasure the few positives they left Acknowledging the positive is not the same with acknowledging their presidencies as good/desireable thing though.

To assume that Gus Dur's negatives outweigh his positives is pretty disingenuous though. Because I know that the situation forced him to only make as much good as he can, plus that age thing could only mean Gus Dur only have so much time left in this word (Rest in Peace old man).

Despite the situation, Gus Dur pulled through, and he did so despite all the obstacles, whether they are his health, the economic conditions of the country, fundamentalism spreading everywhere, and other such things happening.

Megawati I agree with you, mostly meh. But Gus Dur? sorry, but in a country effectively in chaos, he did good.
 
To assume that Gus Dur's negatives outweigh his positives is pretty disingenuous though. Because I know that the situation forced him to only make as much good as he can, plus that age thing could only mean Gus Dur only have so much time left in this word (Rest in Peace old man).
No, no, no. You donn't get call to me disingenous when you are the one to insist on only remembering his positives side and making excusing statements like this (meanwhile I've been trying to cede you some fairness). You are the one being disingenous here.

EDIT:
Also to be pedant, I wasn't stating 'Gus Dur presidency has more negatives than positive'. Well, I probably am what with the tone of my posts so far, but what I meant that post was in regard to the subject 'was it better for Gus Dur to become a president or not became president, in regard to his effort in Islamic moderationa and whatnot'. A subtly different subject. And to be be honest, I'm no sure of the answer myself. AMong other things, because there's no way to tell for sure about 'what if case'. And the context of the situation at that time, well the other option is not good either, and the option that I think better was not an option. Ah well.
 
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No, no, no. You donn't get call to me disingenous when you are the one to insist on only remembering his positives side and making excusing statements like this (meanwhile I've been trying to cede you some fairness). You are the one being disingenous here.

First off, oh damn. I never thought you would have some teeth in you. You've always been quite chill on SB (compared to other posters).

Secondly, since you've been most likely living longer than me. Then please, enlighten me as to why Gus Dur is a pretty shameful President. because from what my research has shown me, from BBC Indonesia, to Merdeka, to Detik. All of that seems pretty on point to be honest. He fired two people for allegations of corruption, he says that the Parliament tend to act like School Children, he wants to allow at least to some form of national dialogue in terms of communism, and also, to have at least some form of closure with Soeharto and Aceh, because, despite all the controversial stuff they're done, both of these are still very integral parts of the country, Soeharto still commands some form of respect even to this day, and Aceh, as much as I'd hate their practice of Sharia. Costs too much blood to be retaken and completely integrated as part of Indo.
 
First off, oh damn. I never thought you would have some teeth in you. You've always been quite chill on SB (compared to other posters).
Me? Chill? Surely you jest? :V (I bite back easily over perceived insult and/or false accusation).

Secondly, since you've been most likely living longer than me. Then please, enlighten me
I'm torn between really wanting to oblige, if only so I can issue counter challenge to you, and being too lazy/losing willingness to continue this by doing proper research and citation.

Hmm, well, give me some time. If I don't come back with a response, feel free to call me out whatever.
 
Me? Chill? Surely you jest? :V (I bite back easily over perceived insult and/or false accusation).

Oh, I have zero intention to insult you. Don't think under any condition that I'm insulting you. I made the disingenuous remark when I myself am too tired. (Internet induced insomnia is killing me)

I'm torn between really wanting to oblige, if only so I can issue counter challenge to you, and being too lazy/losing willingness to continue this by doing proper research and citation.

Hmm, well, give me some time. If I don't come back with a response, feel free to call me out whatever.

Meh, I'm too lazy to debate myself. So... agree to laziness? :sleep::sleep:
 
Meh, I'm too lazy to debate myself. So... agree to laziness? :sleep::sleep:
... I'm already working on a post LOL. Well, there's no point in arguing if only make both us tired. Okay then. :)


Hmm, perhaps a more slightly related but probably more productive question to maybe ponder while both us taking break could be good. If nothing else, it can make a new thread tangent. What are the negatives aspect and positives aspect of each presidents of Indonesia? I mean they all got have some of each.

To randomly speak about the others, as much I support the decision to let go Timor Timur it cannot be denied that set a certain precedent in regard to the integerity of NKRI and secessionist movements. And while Megawati is called indecisive and lacking action, that slow progress also said to allow things to settle and stabilize. Soeharto ... there should be some silver lining but I'm not feeling like think of it atm. :V Soekarno, oh boy the list of both good and bad is going to stack high.

SBY ... okay, I'm actually have no idea atm. What are his good and bad? :unsure: I don't have much impression of SBY either way :V

Jokowi .. hmm.
 
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