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Change in VS. Rules.

#1
More specifically, I think Rule no. 2 makes no sense. Especially in settings where there might be two completely different magic/supernatural systems that don't interact with each other. It also, in my opinion anyways, disregards the days, or even years, an author puts into defining their fictional world. This doesn't just apply to magic, but it can apply to other things as well. For instance: Both Star Wars and Stargate have Hyperspace. However, SG Hyperspace behaves very differently from SW Hyperspace. For instance, SW ships in Hyperspace not only continue to move (seemingly) but also retain their kinetic energy (Which is even enhanced sometimes, see the Last Jedi and the old Star Wars Marvel comics). There's also no evidence that say, Stargate Hyperspace travel would be hindered by large gravity wells like Star Wars Hyperspace is.


There's also a manner of associating magic/fictional systems that have *nothing* to do with each other and combining them into the same entity. For instance, Hamon from JoJo works completely differently from the Force or Ki from DBZ, and equating them into the same thing on the basis of all three of them being supernatural systems makes as much sense as equating cars and wheel barrels into the same thing because they're both vehicles with wheels.


Edit: However, if two systems seem to be similar enough (I.e. One setting happens to use a similar system because it spawned from that setting, i.e. Memetics, which first spawned in the SCP Wiki, is carried over to the RPC Wiki)., then I have no problem with them being equated into the same thing. The same is also true if the two have *explicitly* been shown to affect each other or if a character is affected by magic from various settings in a specific way (I.e. He-Man has its own magical system and it seems to still affect Superman).
 

Skeletickles

Verified Overlord of Foxes
#2
So, Fate servants are now unstoppable, eh?

Because that's what you're asking for.

Fate Servants are spiritual bodies that cannot be harmed by anything without magic. Usually, in a vs debate, we'd say anything with any kind of magic could harm them. If we change the rules like this, they are now unstoppable to anything but Fate magic. Considering they're the top dogs in Fate, you've made them basically untouchable.
 
#3
So, Fate servants are now unstoppable, eh?

Because that's what you're asking for.

Fate Servants are spiritual bodies that cannot be harmed by anything without magic. Usually, in a vs debate, we'd say anything with any kind of magic could harm them. If we change the rules like this, they are now unstoppable to anything but Fate magic. Considering they're the top dogs in Fate, you've made them basically untouchable.

What you just used was a no limits fallacy, and I'm sure you know how that works so I'm not going to explain what it is. Like, you don't need to be a genius to find out that someone like Thanos or the Crimson King could easily just negate their powers. That's like me taking Yoshikage Kira's ''Sheer Heart Attack has no weaknesses'' statement and literally extrapolating it into him being untouchable even by omnipotent beings like TOAA or Azathoth, which makes no sense.
 

Skeletickles

Verified Overlord of Foxes
#4
What you just used was a no limits fallacy, and I'm sure you know how that works so I'm not going to explain what it is. Like, you don't need to be a genius to find out that someone like Thanos or the Crimson King could easily just negate their powers. That's like me taking Yoshikage Kira's ''Sheer Heart Attack has no weaknesses'' statement and literally extrapolating it into him being untouchable even by omnipotent beings like TOAA or Azathoth, which makes no sense.
Oh, but Thanos has Infinity Stones, not Fate magic. He can't harm them at all /s

Do you get my point? Those are exactly the types of arguments we'll get if we change the rules like that. The point of the rule isn't that everything is the same thing, or to demean the work authors put into their magic systems, it's to prevent mass hysterics about how one side can't affect the other because of some part of their abilities. Anti-Magic stops magic, psychic shields stop psychic attacks.
 
#5
Oh, but Thanos has Infinity Stones, not Fate magic. He can't harm them at all /s

Do you get my point? Those are exactly the types of arguments we'll get if we change the rules like that. The point of the rule isn't that everything is the same thing, or to demean the work authors put into their magic systems, it's to prevent mass hysterics about how one side can't affect the other because of some part of their abilities. Anti-Magic stops magic, psychic shields stop psychic attacks.

No.limits.fallcy. Simple as that. And again, if you want to use that logic, I could easily equate Xeelee hyperdrives into being Star Wars/Stargate hyperdrives when they clearly aren't. It'd be harder to enforce, but sometimes the best way to do things is the hard way.


And again, what if a specific system was shown to overcome another system but not work against another system? It makes no sense.
 

Skeletickles

Verified Overlord of Foxes
#6
No.limits.fallcy. Simple as that. And again, if you want to use that logic, I could easily equate Xeelee hyperdrives into being Star Wars/Stargate hyperdrives when they clearly aren't. It'd be harder to enforce, but sometimes the best way to do things is the hard way.


And again, what if a specific system was shown to overcome another system but not work against another system? It makes no sense.
I feel like I'm talking right over you. I specifically said the point of the rule isn't that everything is the same; no, with the current rules you actually couldn't equate Xeelee hyperdrives to Star Wars hyperdrives. The point is, things don't cease to work simply because whatever they're encountering is some other force.

Let's say someone has a spell to negate magic. That's what they do. They're the perfect mage hunter, using their ability to remove a mage's power and beat them with physical forces.

Now, let's say someone is a master mage. Their attacks are superb, and their shielding even better.

These two clash in a vs debate. The mage hunter uses his anti-magic to prevent the mage from using spells. By your logic, this magic fails; they use different magic systems. The Hunter's magic fails, and you end up negating the entire point of using him in a vs debate.

Or take Kirei from Fate. He has Origin Rounds, which cause a targets magic to go out of control and rip them apart. By your logic, this does nothing.
 
#7
I feel like I'm talking right over you. I specifically said the point of the rule isn't that everything is the same; no, with the current rules you actually couldn't equate Xeelee hyperdrives to Star Wars hyperdrives. The point is, things don't cease to work simply because whatever they're encountering is some other force.

Let's say someone has a spell to negate magic. That's what they do. They're the perfect mage hunter, using their ability to remove a mage's power and beat them with physical forces.

Now, let's say someone is a master mage. Their attacks are superb, and their shielding even better.

These two clash in a vs debate. The mage hunter uses his anti-magic to prevent the mage from using spells. By your logic, this magic fails; they use different magic systems. The Hunter's magic fails, and you end up negating the entire point of using him in a vs debate.

Or take Kirei from Fate. He has Origin Rounds, which cause a targets magic to go out of control and rip them apart. By your logic, this does nothing.

But it makes no sense to fuse certain magic systems together. And you're also strawmanning my arguments. I never said that a certain magic system wouldn't affect someone who uses another one, what I did say was, once again, that it made no sense to fuse them together. I also said that certain magic systems *should* be equated to one another if they shared enough similarities with each other. You also haven't answered my question about settings with multiple magic systems. How do you equate them all into being the same entity even though they're explicitly said to be different systems? It makes no sense.


If you want to put words in my mouth and strawman my arguments, by all means continue. Beware that it does nothing but make you look like you don't have a leg to stand on.
 

Skeletickles

Verified Overlord of Foxes
#8
But it makes no sense to fuse certain magic systems together. And you're also strawmanning my arguments. I never said that a certain magic system wouldn't affect someone who uses another one, what I did say was, once again, that it made no sense to fuse them together. I also said that certain magic systems *should* be equated to one another if they shared enough similarities with each other. You also haven't answered my question about settings with multiple magic systems. How do you equate them all into being the same entity even though they're explicitly said to be different systems? It makes no sense.


If you want to put words in my mouth and strawman my arguments, by all means continue. Beware that it does nothing but make you look like you don't have a leg to stand on.
Christ, your response is stupid.

I already told you the point of the rule; that people don't make ridiculous arguments like I made above. Because by your logic, those would be viable arguments. Stop ignoring it because it suits you.

As for multiple magic systems, yes they would be treated as being the same. It doesn't matter if they're not actually the same in-story, because this is vs debates. We're here to decide how characters would do in fights against each other, and having rules that let people argue invincibility for their characters goes against that.

The reason for the rule being there is to decide how interactions between those forces would go. Your original example misses the point entirely; we aren't going to say two different version of Hyperspace get affected by gravity wells when only one does. That's not the point of the rule. The point is, if something has the power to disrupt "hyperspace", it would disrupt all forms of it throughout fiction unless it has the feats to stop it. The rule is meant to keep people from arguing that their favorite character is immune to the other characters power.

I mean, if we go like this, a Jedi padawan can mind control Martian Manhunter. By the current rules, this wouldn't happen; Martian Manhunter has numerous feats for protecting himself from mind control, it wouldn't make any sense for him to fail here. By your rules, because the force and telepathy are two different things, Martian Manhunter wouldn't be able to do squat, despite having the feats to suggest otherwise.

It really feels like I'm talking over your head here. I don't know how much clearer I can make it; this is the best way to do vs debates and is the rule held by nearly all similar sites. There is a very good reason for that.
 
#9
Christ, your response is stupid.

I already told you the point of the rule; that people don't make ridiculous arguments like I made above. Because by your logic, those would be viable arguments. Stop ignoring it because it suits you.

As for multiple magic systems, yes they would be treated as being the same. It doesn't matter if they're not actually the same in-story, because this is vs debates. We're here to decide how characters would do in fights against each other, and having rules that let people argue invincibility for their characters goes against that.

The reason for the rule being there is to decide how interactions between those forces would go. Your original example misses the point entirely; we aren't going to say two different version of Hyperspace get affected by gravity wells when only one does. That's not the point of the rule. The point is, if something has the power to disrupt "hyperspace", it would disrupt all forms of it throughout fiction unless it has the feats to stop it. The rule is meant to keep people from arguing that their favorite character is immune to the other characters power.

I mean, if we go like this, a Jedi padawan can mind control Martian Manhunter. By the current rules, this wouldn't happen; Martian Manhunter has numerous feats for protecting himself from mind control, it wouldn't make any sense for him to fail here. By your rules, because the force and telepathy are two different things, Martian Manhunter wouldn't be able to do squat, despite having the feats to suggest otherwise.

It really feels like I'm talking over your head here. I don't know how much clearer I can make it; this is the best way to do vs debates and is the rule held by nearly all similar sites. There is a very good reason for that.


Well, if you want to ragequit, count me in. I'm not dealing with you putting words in my mouth or strawmanning my arguments. Go back to SB and debate Battlegrinder if you want to do that.
 

Skeletickles

Verified Overlord of Foxes
#10
Well, if you want to ragequit, count me in. I'm not dealing with you putting words in my mouth or strawmanning my arguments. Go back to SB and debate Battlegrinder if you want to do that.
Oh, I see how this goes; you try to argue, get shot down, and then make up some drivel about strawmanning and ragequitting when you realize you can't take being contradicted.
 
#12
Oh, I see how this goes; you try to argue, get shot down, and then make up some drivel about strawmanning and ragequitting when you realize you can't take being contradicted.

I'd make a comment about you looking into a mirror, but that'd get me infracted probably and I want to maintain a clean record. Also, get off your high horse. Your ''shooting down of my arguments'' was as accurate as a stormtrooper's aim and only serves to make you look extremely arrogant.


Okay. What's the issue exactly?

I was arguing that the current Vs. system (Specifically rule no. 2) makes no sense, and only serves to further convolute Vs. debates. This lad follows me to this thread from another one, starts putting words into my mouth and strawmanning my arguments. But if you want to know about the point of this thread, here's a tl;dr version of my complaint: Fusing all force/magic/mystical systems into one makes no sense, and although it does suffer from the risk of users increasingly making the ''No limits fallacy'', I believe that splitting them up would be more logical. (For instance, the Warp and the Force use completely different rules, some of which completely contradict each other. Merging them into one makes no sense. This also applies to other fictional magic/mystical systems like Chi, Hamon, Chakra, Chaos Force, Bending etc).
 

Skeletickles

Verified Overlord of Foxes
#13
Okay. What's the issue exactly?
They want to keep everything as a separate force. Which, to be frank, is stupid. My above arguments help illustrate that; the argument this started with (found here) had them claiming that because WH40k characters don't use RWBY magic, RWBY characters wouldn't be able to break out of time stops made by a WH40k character, despite being able to.
 
#15
They want to keep everything as a separate force. Which, to be frank, is stupid. My above arguments help illustrate that; the argument this started with (found here) had them claiming that because WH40k characters don't use RWBY magic, RWBY characters wouldn't be able to break out of time stops made by a WH40k character, despite being able to.

Wrong. If you actually read my post, you would have found this:


Edit: However, if two systems seem to be similar enough (I.e. One setting happens to use a similar system because it spawned from that setting, i.e. Memetics, which first spawned in the SCP Wiki, is carried over to the RPC Wiki)., then I have no problem with them being equated into the same thing. The same is also true if the two have *explicitly* been shown to affect each other or if a character is affected by magic from various settings in a specific way (I.e. He-Man has its own magical system and it seems to still affect Superman).

Again, you're putting words in my mouth. Also, I'm a dude, and I've stated such here before.


I've never had an interest in VS to be honest. How does SB handle it?

I believe that's left up to the OP, which I'm fine with.
 

Skeletickles

Verified Overlord of Foxes
#18
I've never had an interest in VS to be honest. How does SB handle it?
SB the same rule, actually. As does nearly every similar site. The rule in question:

13) Physical laws and general reality are assumed to be contiguous and interoperable within the boundaries of common sense in a versus debate.
This means that when two sides are pitted against each other, we must assume that their abilities will work as described wherever they fight in the debate, so as to not have debates devolve into mass hysterics about how one side's abilities cease to exist when they cross the threshold. This is not limited to things such as hyperspace, subspace, etc, but also to personal abilities such as ki, chakra, etc etc. If one side has a special "force", the other side is assumed to be able to interact with it to some degree, or else Vs Debates ceases to be interactive"
 
#19
SB the same rule, actually. As does nearly every similar site. The rule in question:

Correction: ''Some degree'' doesn't mean the forces equate to being the same thing. What it does mean is that forces interact with each other to a certain degree. Also, to my knowledge, this has largely been excluded from more modern SB debates unless stated by the OP (I.e. The Kaguya vs WH40k thread).
 

Skeletickles

Verified Overlord of Foxes
#20
Correction: ''Some degree'' doesn't mean the forces equate to being the same thing. What it does mean is that forces interact with each other to a certain degree. Also, to my knowledge, this has largely been excluded from more modern SB debates unless stated by the OP (I.e. The Kaguya vs WH40k thread).
I've told you multiple times the point of the rules isn't that they are the exact same thing, it's that people don't use the ridiculous arguments I used as examples. Stop ignoring me.
 
#21
I've told you multiple times the point of the rules isn't that they are the exact same thing, it's that people don't use the ridiculous arguments I used as examples. Stop ignoring me.

Then why do you act as if it is so? You explicitly said:


Because that's what you're asking for.

Fate Servants are spiritual bodies that cannot be harmed by anything without magic. Usually, in a vs debate, we'd say anything with any kind of magic could harm them. If we change the rules like this, they are now unstoppable to anything but Fate magic. Considering they're the top dogs in Fate, you've made them basically untouchable.

And:


They want to keep everything as a separate force. Which, to be frank, is stupid. My above arguments help illustrate that; the argument this started with (found here) had them claiming that because WH40k characters don't use RWBY magic, RWBY characters wouldn't be able to break out of time stops made by a WH40k character, despite being able to.

Which implies that you wish this to be the case. If it isn't, explain to me in a polite way, I'd be glad to hear it. Also if you paid attention earlier (I'm assuming you *didn't* conveniently ignore this), I also said that I'd be okay with an NLF rule being put in place for the exact reason you mention.
 

Skeletickles

Verified Overlord of Foxes
#22
Which implies that you wish this to be the case. If it isn't, explain to me in a polite way, I'd be glad to hear it. Also if you paid attention earlier (I'm assuming you *didn't* conveniently ignore this), I also said that I'd be okay with an NLF rule being put in place for the exact reason you mention.
Think of it like this: A Fate servant cannot by harmed by beings without magic. That is a fact; they're spiritual bodies, and something has to have at least some magic in order to harm them.

Now, let's take, say, Ozpin from RWBY. He is roughly servant level. He should be able to, at least, give the servant a decent fight. However, because the rule you are advocating for separates aura/RWBY magic and Fate magic, Ozpin would not be able to harm the servant.

The point of the rule is that abilities need to be able to interact with each other, otherwise some characters have their abilities outright negated.
 
#23
Think of it like this: A Fate servant cannot by harmed by beings without magic. That is a fact; they're spiritual bodies, and something has to have at least some magic in order to harm them.

Now, let's take, say, Ozpin from RWBY. He is roughly servant level. He should be able to, at least, give the servant a decent fight. However, because the rule you are advocating for separates aura/RWBY magic and Fate magic, Ozpin would not be able to harm the servant.

The point of the rule is that abilities need to be able to interact with each other, otherwise some characters have their abilities outright negated.

And why should *all* of magical systems be united because of one setting? That don't sound like the smartest thing to do. And again, there are obviously other things that can hurt them like say, conceptual or casual manipulation (E.g. Gold Experience Requiem).
 

Skeletickles

Verified Overlord of Foxes
#24
And why should *all* of magical systems be united because of one setting? That don't sound like the smartest thing to do. And again, there are obviously other things that can hurt them like say, conceptual or casual manipulation (E.g. Gold Experience Requiem).
You missed my point. Of course conceptual attacks should be able to harm them; I know that, you know that. The rule is there to curb arguments that claim Servants can't be harmed at all without Fate magic.

Fate isn't the only setting, either. Characters have abilities, such as breaking out of time stops or protecting from psychic attacks, that wouldn't work at all, because they only defend against whatever is canon to their story.

Let's say there's a character that has some sort of special energy, a form of magic, that lets him control time. He can speed himself up, slow others down, stop time, and break out of the time stops of others.

Now let's take another character. He has the ability to stop time but is otherwise normal.

Pitting them against each other, the standard response would be, of course: The first guy can break out of time stops, so of course he would win. But because the change in rules you propose keeps the two abilities wholly separate, the first guy cannot break the time stop of the second. It makes using the first character pointless in the first place.

Do you see my point? With this change, you end up with less of a battle and more of a game of whose faster. Or, to use the example again, a game of who can stop time first. It's a quickdraw, not a fight.
 
#25
You missed my point. Of course conceptual attacks should be able to harm them; I know that, you know that. The rule is there to curb arguments that claim Servants can't be harmed at all without Fate magic.

Fate isn't the only setting, either. Characters have abilities, such as breaking out of time stops or protecting from psychic attacks, that wouldn't work at all, because they only defend against whatever is canon to their story.

Let's say there's a character that has some sort of special energy, a form of magic, that lets him control time. He can speed himself up, slow others down, stop time, and break out of the time stops of others.

Now let's take another character. He has the ability to stop time but is otherwise normal.

Pitting them against each other, the standard response would be, of course: The first guy can break out of time stops, so of course he would win. But because the change in rules you propose keeps the two abilities wholly separate, the first guy cannot break the time stop of the second. It makes using the first character pointless in the first place.

Do you see my point? With this change, you end up with less of a battle and more of a game of whose faster. Or, to use the example again, a game of who can stop time first. It's a quickdraw, not a fight.


Y'know, I can take some quotes and turn them into literal interpretations. Only Stand users can kill other Stand users. There. Now let's fuse JJBA and Fate even though mixing them makes *no sense*.
 

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